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2010 Seedlings...

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2010 Seedlings...

Post by Admin on Tue 12 Oct - 17:57

Seedlings that were sown throughout winter are starting to flower for the first time. This one is an OP 'Floradora' from the U.S. It's not bad for a first flower.

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Will be a floribunda but not sure if I'll keep it yet. So far it's a tall lanky seedling.

OP 'Baby Love' also from the U.S. This is its second flower, taken today.

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This was its first flower in the middle of winter in the greenhouse.

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Looks like it will continue to add petals as it matures. It's just been transferred into a 20cm pot to allow it to grow unhindered, however, it is very definately going to be a small miniature. I have big plans for this little seedling. It's the first baby that I grew from an embryo extraction and it has so far been completely clean with no chemical intervention.

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Re: 2010 Seedlings...

Post by Bemo on Wed 13 Oct - 3:48

Simon,
it looks if you can still include the last one into your 2010 pollinating schedule, looks pretty fertile.

cheers
Bernhard

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Re: 2010 Seedlings...

Post by orchid40 on Wed 13 Oct - 17:07

They are lovely little seedlings Simon. I like them all. It always amazes me how soon the babies bloom.

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Re: 2010 Seedlings...

Post by Ozeboy on Thu 14 Oct - 10:40

Simon would you put me on the wanted list for Floradora when it grows.

I have been trying to get it everywhere but asume it's USA only

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Re: 2010 Seedlings...

Post by Admin on Mon 1 Nov - 23:54

The yellow one, above, now has a name Wink

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Bruce, these are open pollinated 'Floradora' seedlings. Most are REALLY badly affected by mildew. Only two will be kept and they aren't crash hot either. Only keeping them to see if they improve with age as they sometimes do.

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Re: 2010 Seedlings...

Post by orchid40 on Tue 2 Nov - 9:50

Congratulations, Simon!

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Re: 2010 Seedlings...

Post by Admin on Wed 3 Nov - 0:41

LOL... it's not an official name... just a nick-name... this rose will never be released... it is just going to a breeder...

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Re: 2010 Seedlings...

Post by orchid40 on Wed 3 Nov - 12:46

Oh - OK. You can keep the congrats though Smile

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Re: 2010 Seedlings...

Post by Admin on Fri 5 Nov - 21:32

This, and all other 'Floradora' seedlings will be discarded because they get mildew REALLY badly.

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Re: 2010 Seedlings...

Post by Guest on Fri 5 Nov - 21:40

when seedlings are you and tender some will be prone to mildew, but as they grow and the foliage becomes tougher the seem to grow out of it, how ever if it persists , out they come.

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Re: 2010 Seedlings...

Post by Ozeboy on Sat 6 Nov - 1:10

Simon I noticed the Species seeds you sent all suffered mildew when undercover. I cut off he infected parts, placed them outside and they are growing very well with no mildew.

Send the Floradora seedlings up here as I think you may be too hasty discarding them.

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Re: 2010 Seedlings...

Post by The Lazy Rosarian on Sat 6 Nov - 6:33

Simon, if you do discard the Floradora seedlings I will take some and pay postage and handling.
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Re: 2010 Seedlings...

Post by Admin on Sat 6 Nov - 10:32

Guys... These seedlings are growing outside and have been for months. I've even gone against my no-chemicals mantra and sprayed them to try and stop the mildew and failed. They are at a stage now when they are growing mature older growth and this too is developing mildew. I'm not going to go all sentimental over some seedlings just because of what their parents are. These guys have had months to harden off and they just keep getting worse and I am growing seedlings that have never shown mildew from day one right along side them. I can tell you from experience that if I was to leave them they would eventually die of their own accord and I'm not about to grow roses that need a life support system. It is crucial that none of us lose site of the goal here that we should be breeding roses that don't need this kind of intervention and not just stirring the same old pot to make more of the same of what we already have because then we'll keep wandering around scratching our heads and continue to wonder why everyone is pulling their roses out and replacing them with natives... I would too if I thought there was nothing better. Of the species seedlings I grew, Bruce, some of mine mildewed too, but not all of them. All the ones that mildewed were pulled out and discarded. Individual slight differences in genetic makeup differentiate the seedlings and I'm afraid you have to be more ruthless in culling them rather than keeping them on just in case. I would much rather raise 200 seedlings and cull them down to just one seedling if that one seedling was far superior in all areas and be of greater benefit in the long run. I can always get more seed should I need it because the great thing about the friends forged in roses is that people are always more than happy to support each other... this is unlike any other hobby I have been involved in... and I've been involved in a few. One thing is for sure I am not going to palm off substandard seedlings to anyone just for the sake of keeping them alive... that's not what we are about and is not something I intend to start now. Even the best roses can, and often do, breed crap and when they have been given the chance to prove themselves and failed then they should be selected against... survival of the fittest ONLY. For the last 8 years or so I have raised between 200 and 2000 seedlings a year and I reckon I'm getting pretty good at picking the duds from the studs and I'm afraid I can guarantee that to grow these ones successfully you will have to do two things... first you will have to treat them with chemicals to prevent disease and secondly you will need to graft it to push it along and these are the top two criteria against which I judge a rose.

So I'm sorry guys, I won't be sending these seedlings anywhere. Unfortunately they are duds and breeding roses takes long enough as it is without making our job harder than it has to be already.


Last edited by Simon on Sat 27 Nov - 19:49; edited 1 time in total

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Re: 2010 Seedlings...

Post by Admin on Sat 27 Nov - 16:12

Been a bit slack in photographing new seedlings. Mildew has been such an enormous problem here this year there hasn't been much worth photographing. This one is just out, however. It's got some mildew but I'm going ot keep this one on to see how it performs as it matures.

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Re: 2010 Seedlings...

Post by Admin on Sun 28 Nov - 17:35

Looking kinda cute today.

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Looks very much like it's parents, 'Many Happy Returns'. I have to move my plant of 'Many Happy Returns as the tree peony is eating it... what do you think my chances of a successul move at this time of the year is like Rolling Eyes

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Re: 2010 Seedlings...

Post by orchid40 on Sun 28 Nov - 17:51

Simon, you have green thumbs - I'm sure your Many Happy Returns will survive the move. Especially with the weather not being extreme.

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Re: 2010 Seedlings...

Post by Abbi on Sun 28 Nov - 19:56

Many Happy Returns is gorgeous, but it very low and spreading. Mine is being eaten by Gold Bunny.

Dee made me two beautiful Many happy Returns standards, budded onto rootstock.. One has already flowered. I love it.

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Re: 2010 Seedlings...

Post by Admin on Sun 28 Nov - 20:14

That's a good idea; budding it onto a standard. I love the low spreading form and I hope its seedlings retain this shape. I have pollen from MHR drying tonight to use over the next day or so on Rosa longicuspis var. sinowilsonii. MHR is meant to decended from Rosa bracteata through 'Mermaid' so I'm keen to try and get these two lines together to see what can be achieved. I don't know that I believe them when they say it's from 'Mermaid' but will give them the benefit of the doubt so far. It's been a big pollinating day today... did 50 or so pollinations and collected about 156 new lots of pollen between everything else that needs doing around here... I need to stop work.

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Re: 2010 Seedlings...

Post by Bemo on Tue 30 Nov - 3:02

Simon wrote:........ what do you think my chances of a successul move at this time of the year is like Rolling Eyes

as you will get some rain and temps not over 20C ( WFC for Hobart), I would go. Good luck!

cheers
Bernhard

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Re: 2010 Seedlings...

Post by Dave on Wed 1 Dec - 5:31

Don't get mildew on the roses here. Dunno why. But you should see the pumpkins late in the season!

Simon, why is MHR such a good rose?

What are the advantages of pollinating it with itself? I've never done it.

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Re: 2010 Seedlings...

Post by Admin on Wed 1 Dec - 20:11

MHR is meant to be bred down from 'Mermaid' making it a hybrid bracteata. 'Mermaid' is something of an enigma for hybridisers because it is very uncooperative but every now and then someone gets it to work. It's highly desireable to work with too because it is so healthy. MHR is also very healthy and is very fertile so with any luck it might be a fertile bridge to work with brcateata.

There are many advantages of self-crossing a rose. In this case, if the pedigree is correct (and I have my suspicions it isn't but will go with it untl proven otherwise), then bracteata genes may be lurking in there along with bracteata health. Selfing this rose might help to bromg the bracteata genes out without diluting them even further. I think of self-crossing a rose like taking a deck of cards and reshuffling it to see what comes up. You aren't adding any new genes but are instead working with different combinations of the ones you initially started with. If for some reason you don't get what you wanted in the first instance there may be a chance it could be brought out by reshuffling the deck (you could also still get the joker Rolling Eyes).

In another situation you can do deliberate selfing to bring recessive genes back out. For instance I have a seedling that is 'Baby Faurax' x multiflora. The seedling is once flowering but is carrying remontancy from its 'Baby Faurax' seed parent. By crossing it with itself you can retain the form of something, to some extent, without adding anything new, and possibly unpredictable, to bring the remontancy back out so you can then use it as a foundation breeder for breeding more remontant roses. You wouldn't use it all the time, but in some cases it can very quickly 'fix' something useful in a breeding line.

Mr Moore was once noted as saying he had never seen any open pollinated rose seedling that he couldn'y say wasn't the result of selfing. When you sow OP hips you are almost invariably sowing selfed seeds. This is not true of all roses, as some can be quite self-sterile but most moderns will self to some extent. I like to sow OP seeds of new parents to see how they germinate. In assuming they are selfed I can also assume that the germination rate of selfed seeds might be a good indication of its possible worth as a seed parent with crossed pollen. The inlfuence of the paternal parent on germination shouldn't be under estimated but it can give you some kind of an idea whether it is worth pursuing or not. I have this wonderful healthy mini called 'Little Wonder' that I bought last year. It set a prodigious number of op hips so I collected them all and sowed them. Not one seed germinated out of several hundred. I don't think I'll be calling this one into service as a Mum any time soon. It might work better as a Dad instead. 'Flower Carpet Amber' was the same. Out of 300-odd seeds sown, none have germinated yet... I figure this one is probably more fertile and useful as a boy.

Smile

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Re: 2010 Seedlings...

Post by Dave on Thu 2 Dec - 6:54

Simon, your answers are always great - you take the time to explain clearly - I wish I was in your classes at school - I might have passed science instead of being bottom of the class Cursing

I'd never thought of selfs like that. Thought the bees would get the genes all mixed up. Must try some for fun.
Thanks

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Re: 2010 Seedlings...

Post by Admin on Fri 3 Dec - 20:47

Thought the bees would get the genes all mixed up

I reckon the bees know what they are doing... it's us that mess things up all the time Wink

Here's another OP test seedling.. OP 'Ebb Tide... nice purple Smile This is its first flower open today.

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Re: 2010 Seedlings...

Post by Bemo on Sat 4 Dec - 3:13

Simon wrote:
......... nice purple Smile ....
indeed.... Thumbsup . 'Ebb Tide' seems to pass the colour easily. It's hard to get ET here. I'm playing with the thought to breed a brown rose, maybe a good purple would help to realize this, will start with a yellow on a dark red scratch Hmmmm

cheers
Bernhard

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Re: 2010 Seedlings...

Post by Dave on Sat 4 Dec - 6:21

Looks very promising, Simon. What is disease resistance like on Ebb Tide? I'm very interested and pretty sure Swanes sell it.

It's been raining on and off for months here. Brindabella Bouquet finally has BS at the base. My cleanest rose by far is DA's Windermere, with only one or two leaves at a time affected, so it is clothed from top to bottom with healthy leaves. It looks amazing when every other rose has succumbed. Does anyone else grow it?

BTW Clynophylla and Clynophylla x Bracteata are similarly clean. Still in pots but very healthy. When will they flower?

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Re: 2010 Seedlings...

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