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euphrates crosses

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euphrates crosses

Post by Guest on 2nd October 2010, 09:54

simon i was looking at a site where you wanted to find a suitable seed host for euphrates, i have used moulin rouge which i found very receptive to its pollen, had a number of seedling up most devopled mildew which i threw out. there are two remaining , flowers look like moulin rouge, its colour is a very strong strait , there is however a darker blotch in the centre, which may be euphrates strait.

i think if you use altissimo as a seed parent , its straites can be quite strong ( i crossed rosa hemispherica with it because of its severe doubling, hopiing to thin it out a bit, but all red singles. the growth though was quite strong)

the good thing though of the moulin rouge X euphrates is , though the blotch may not be expressed that well, its genes are now locked inside a modern, and hopefully when used this year as a pollinator ,the gene expressed to its offspring,


any way here is a pic of the finished product, it grows to about 2.5ft high

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Re: euphrates crosses

Post by Admin on 2nd October 2010, 14:05

Warren!!!! This is THE most outstanding news!!! Can I ask a favour? Can you grab one of its flowers when it starts and pull the petals off and photograph the petals? I'm VERY excited that you've managed to get this and wish that I had met you years ago!

I'm assuming you know of Jim Sproul? He has done lots of work on persica hybrids and has learnt a lot about its genetics. It's really very interesting. Here is what I have learnt from Jim over the last 6 years or so:

1. The persica blotch is dominant. Crosses with blotched parents and non-blotched parents will very often produce blotches... but not always. I don't know how much you know about genetics but with modern roses having higher ploidy than most species roses (not all) a tetraploid can posses the blotched gene and be able to express it even if it has only one copy of it. That, unfortunately means it has three copies of the non-blotched version of the gene and so can still breed non-blotched seedlings when crossed with non-blotched parents. Which leads me to the next most significant point.

2. The blotch gene appears to be dose dependent. If a tetraploid rose has only one copy of the blotched gene it will be blotched but the blotch will be small. Sometimes so small it is hard to see without pulling the petals off and looking carefully at the base. If the tetraploid seedling has 4 copies of the blotched gene then it's blotch will be largest. You will also get 2 and 3 copies in between. The idea is to select the seedlings with the largest blotch because that implies more copies of the blotched gene. We want to get to four in tetraploids to get the largest blotch. Euphrates is diploid and I'm assuming Moulin Rouge is tetraploid. Your seedling above will therefore most likely be triploid (will also have reduced fertility if this is the case... not guaranteed but likely... we need to hope that it will produce both diploid and haploid pollen and will be most useful as a pollen parent I reckon).

3. Other genes can mask the blotch gene. Jim believes that some traits, such as yellow eyes on coloured roses, can mask the blotch. The blotch may genetically be there but it can't be expressed because the yellow centre (or white centre) inhibits the expression of colour in that region. Jim believes, and has good data to support it, that pigment in flowers is zonally affected by different sets of genes. The trick will be to avoid putting the persica hybrids with those that possess these genes.

You have no idea how excited I am by this news!!! You have made my day!!!

Now... I have Altissimo x Euphrates seeds stratifying now. I have enormous trouble getting Altissimo seeds to germinate. In fact I have never been able to get one to germinate successfully wothout cracking the seed open and culturing the embryo and this is not such an easy task and I'm not willing to risk such valauble seeds to my heavy handedness and was hoping you might be able to impart some tips to get these babies to germinate. I'm actually thinking of taking them out and giving them a tomato pulp treatment. I've had great success with an experiment I did this year fermenting rose seeds (op Westerland seeds) in tomato pulp. I fermented 50 OP Westerland seeds in tomato pulp for two weeks and had 50 that I left untreated then stratified them both in the same way in peat in the fridge and sowed them both at the same time. I also have had lots of trouble getting Westerland seeds to germinate before. The results are in and as of this morning I have only one seedling from the untreated seeds (that's 2% germination) and 12 from the tomato-pilp treated seeds up (versus 24% germination). I'm thinking it might be worth a shot trying to get those rock-like Altissimo seeds going.

One thing I would say is, at this point, don't throw ANY seedlings away from it... mildew or not... it's important to try and get SOMETHING fertile and we can always cross them with something more resistant later on once something with good fertility comes along.

This year, I have bought Trier to try Euphrates pollen on too. I think the blotch on a mybrid musk-type plant would be amazing and Trier was used in making Tigris. Also in my seedlings at the moment is an OP Baby Love seedling that I'm hoping to put Euphrates on once it gets some size on. When it gets bigger I'll send you (and anypne else interested in using it for breeding) a plant. Jim was saying it has been Baby Love has been the single most important plant to add to his program to improve mildew resistance. So far my little seedling has shown no sign of either mildew or black spot. It's a single light yellow flower and I think that will go very well with the red blotch of Euphrates...


So excited I'm babbling now... have you got anymore photos +:ve:


Last edited by Simon on 8th January 2011, 09:50; edited 1 time in total

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Re: euphrates crosses

Post by Admin on 2nd October 2010, 19:06

Repotted my little Baby Love seedling today... about to flower Smile

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Re: euphrates crosses

Post by Guest on 3rd October 2010, 09:43

simon i will photograph the moulin rouge X euphrates flowers for you to see.

with the altissimo seeds, i have no probs germinating them, i use film containers for storage and VERY moist peat . the seeds as you aware are light browny yellow, store in the fridge untill they start germinating or the seed colour changes from light browny yellow to dark brown like an apple seed, be patient.

one year i got to enthusiatic and got the seed out of stratification to early, after no germination , i had to put a ungerminated seed sown in pots back in the fridge and walla

thinking about doing some chromosome doubling this spring, which is like going into the twighlight zone, could be really interesting

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Re: euphrates crosses

Post by Admin on 3rd October 2010, 16:47

It's quite risky too... you need to be very careful.

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Re: euphrates crosses

Post by Guest on 3rd October 2010, 17:23

i have a tissue culture qualification behind me, so dealing with hormones is nt a prob, been doing research on the net for some time on chromosome doubling, it only works on diploid and triploid roses , tetraploids do n't double. i will be using 2 hormones

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Re: euphrates crosses

Post by Admin on 3rd October 2010, 18:21

I've never seen hormones that can do it. Only chemicals I've seen that can do it are pre-emergent herbicides that are mitotic inhibitors, such as Colchicine. Also heard that laughing gas is effective. Colchicine is very very toxic. I'm about to try and double laevigata. You wouldn't want to double tetraploids unless you wanted to make octoploids.

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Re: euphrates crosses

Post by Guest on 3rd October 2010, 19:18

when i did the course they referred to chemicals as hormones, eg colchicine ,2, 4 d herbicide.

i have a 1% colchicine solution in the fridge waiting and will be using a pre emergent herbicide as well,

from the literature on the net, tetraploids will not double , but the di and triploid doubling has great advantages

1 pollen viability is greatly increased
2 petal numbers are increased

(1 )has more importance for me as triploid pollen fertility increased would be a great advantage using hybrids in breeding

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Re: euphrates crosses

Post by Admin on 3rd October 2010, 19:53

Yep... have a look at the article I wrote about it here: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

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Re: euphrates crosses

Post by Admin on 3rd October 2010, 21:42

There is also this discussion I had on RHA: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

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Re: euphrates crosses

Post by Guest on 4th October 2010, 07:57

simon i read you posted articles and if you are concerned about the use of colchicine, i have read postings on various sites using trifluralin, its effectiveness is better than colchicine as a spindle inhibitor i would rather use this than colchicine if this is the case .

if you are worried about the toxicity of colchicine , trifluralin as a pre emergent herbicide, i think must be handled with caution, pre emergent and ester herbicides scare the hell out of me.

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Re: euphrates crosses

Post by Admin on 4th October 2010, 21:16

Trifluralin has been hard to find... the local ag. supply store looked at me as though I was some kind of terrorist when I asked for it... have been looking for another source ever since... hard to track down but it is my preferred option as it is less toxic for mammals where-as colchicine is a mitotic inhibitor of mammals (which is why it's so toxic to us). With trifluralin being more plant specific the results results are much better. David Zlesak was using trifluralin to double his polys with good success. Wish I could find a source.

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Re: euphrates crosses

Post by The Lazy Rosarian on 5th October 2010, 07:10

Simon, your biggest problem will be pack size. I think 20lt is the smallest it comes in. You would also need a chemical users card I think. You will have to go to a company like Elders/Landmark or like and then see who they have sold to, then try to buy a very small amount off the farmer. If there is a lucerne farmer near you they would have it, hope this helps.
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Re: euphrates crosses

Post by Admin on 5th October 2010, 17:31

I went to the Tas. equivalent to Elders; Roberts. They hadn't even heard of it. Might see if my neighbour can get it.

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Re: euphrates crosses

Post by Guest on 5th October 2010, 17:57

try PREEN or TRIFLAN

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Re: euphrates crosses

Post by Guest on 5th October 2010, 20:39

simon i know you have done some work with multiflora, this is a cross of moulin rouge X multiflora (cv) cottage pink, probably apple blossom. 2008

i was nt happy with the growth so ended up shoveling it

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Re: euphrates crosses

Post by Admin on 5th October 2010, 22:08

Good to see that some strong colours can be bred though Fingers Crossed Over the next few months my multiflora hybrids should start to flower and I'll post photos then. They are big plants now, pushing 3ft tal and wide after twelve months growth.

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Re: euphrates crosses

Post by Admin on 8th January 2011, 09:50

Hi Warren,

Any chance of that photo of the petals of Moulin Rouge x Euphrates??? I have a hip forming this season that is Wild Rover x Euphrates. Keeping my fingers crossed for this one. What do you think of the idea of putting Euphrates on Sympathie?

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