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Fecundity.

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Fecundity.

Post by OzRose on 23rd August 2010, 02:08

Great word that . Smile
When they named this rose "Royal Highness" , I think it may have been Queen Victoria they were thinking of.
This is the produce from 3 hips.[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
I had thought I was doing well if I got 5 or 6 nice fat seeds out of the hips I had been shelling .
It's anybody's guess what they have been crossed with so it will be a real suprise bag.

cheers. Rosalie
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Re: Fecundity.

Post by Admin on 27th August 2010, 21:12

Wait till you try rugosa hybrids in breeding. Scabrosa holds the record for me. 92 seeds from one hip!!! I love using the rugosa as parents becuase they are such big seed producers. According to Paul Barden, Mr Moore would say you need to raise at least 100 seedlings from any one cross to see the full bredth of the variation a cross can produce. With rugosa hybrids you can do this with just a few hips. Personally I don't like these big fat seeds. They take forever to germinate and often don't at all. I like a smaller seed... they just seem to do better. Coincidentally, these big fat seeds are usually the product of a lot of modern roses and seemt o be a feature passed down from Rosa gigantea, whose seeds have so far failed to germinate for me every time I've tried them; they are like small rocks they are so hard.

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Re: Fecundity.

Post by OzRose on 27th August 2010, 21:57

Ah well that sort of touches on another question that I was going to ask , re the variation of size of the seeds in the different hips .
[Now, Hmmmm how to put this grammatically Laughing not]
Are the smaller seeds likely to be from a different cross to the larger seeds ; like puppies in a litter can have different fathers ?
I might try separating the large from the rest and see how they compare in germination.
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Re: Fecundity.

Post by Admin on 27th August 2010, 22:06

not in my experience... when I mentioned smaller seeds I was talking about a smaller seed in general, like rugosa seeds which are half the size of HT seeds. I mean anythng is possible but in my experience these smaller seeds, in hips of larger sized seeds, represent immature seeds. These might be seeds that just haven't ripened yet or never will because of the division of resources within the rose being a limiting factor.

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Re: Fecundity.

Post by OzRose on 28th August 2010, 01:25

More questions . Smile

Just where does R. gigantea fit into the pedigree of the modern H.T , like how far back or how was it introduced into the breeding ?

Does the seed in a hip not ripen all at once ? With some of the hips I have de-seeded this past 10 days or so , some of them have seemed to have seed dried off and busting out the top while lower down in the hip everything is still quite green and immature looking . I noticed it particularly with hips off Abraham Darby , Dapple Dawn and Golden Showers .
And this leads to the next questions . Is there a recommended time/stage to harvest the hips ? colour alone is not reliable I fear. How do you know if the seed inside is going to be ripe enough ?

I usually leave the hips on the roses [that set them] till pruning time . They provide a source of winter tucker for the rosellas and 28's . This year was no exception but most of the roses have been pruned earlier than I would normally do it because my sister has been coming down from Perth to do it and she's had to fit it in with her work schedule [I'm supposed to be taking it easy (:rolfmao:what with 3 young kids?) after having screws put in my back earlier this year] So I've raced [shuffled more like] out and picked hips from what was remaining and rescued them from the bonfire heap but it's anybody's guess as to how ripe they were. Time will tell.
I now have seed in zip lock bags in the bottom of the fridge from :
The Dark Lady
Ballerina
La Rose Romantica
Sweet Juliet
Sweet Sonata
Golden Showers
Fritz Nobis
Wedding Day
Shady Lady
Rae Dungan
Abraham Darby
Seduction
Royal Highness
Mother's Love
Dapple Dawn
and I have seed in pots from Regensburg , Mabella and Soaring Spirits.

At least I can play with seeds and seedlings sitting down . Laughing

cheers. Rosalie

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Re: Fecundity.

Post by Ozeboy on 28th August 2010, 05:36

Simon, my Gigantea seeds are still hard as rocks and have not had one germinate. They are sitting on beach sand moistened with 5mil of 3% peroxide to 80mil of water solution.
They were treated with Bromelain 500 for 4 days then placed in plastic take away food containers filled to half the depth. The moisture has been constant and shows no sign of mould or algae.
They were placed in the fridge mid summer then placed on a north facing window sill in Autumn. Then back in the fridge for winter and out again early this August. They are still hard as rocks so looks like they will go back in the fridge again this summer and out again in autumn. Then possibly back in the fridge for winter and out again August 2011.
Will be interesting to see how long these seeds last prior to garmination.
Might have to try and germinatemid summer as Gigantea comes from very warm areas.

I was interested to see you mention Mr. Moore's experiences, 100 seeds showing all the likely variation. It is true of a lot of multi bearing species which result in approximately 5% retained for breeding the F2 generation.

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Re: Fecundity.

Post by The Lazy Rosarian on 28th August 2010, 08:24

Excuse my ignorance, but can someone explain the meaning or what this word "Fecundity" is. Embarassed
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Re: Fecundity.

Post by Ozeboy on 28th August 2010, 10:55

Productiveness Fruitfulness

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Re: Fecundity.

Post by Admin on 28th August 2010, 15:26

Gigantea is thought to be involved with the breeding of Teas and the Teas were involved with making the Hybrid Teas with things like Hybrid Perpetuals (Puh!).

I think that there are always more seeds in the hip than will actually develop. Pollen might be a limiting factor (i.e. the amount of pollen), nutrition/fitness might be a limiting factor, weather might be a limiting factor or something as basic as space (though exogenius achenes develop all the time). It might also be a the parent plant selecting only the most fit to go on to maturity (I like this idea too though I still get masses of weedy crappy seedlings). Seeds in general take about 120 days to mature. You are safe to harvest hips at 120 days for any type though my Tea seeds have taken forever to ripen. Some, such as multiflora seeds, can be ready in as little as 8-10 weeks. Colour is not reliable. Some hips never turn orange/yellow/red. You can also take the peducle as a sign of maturity. When the peduncle starts goping yellow the hip is about to fall off.

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Re: Fecundity.

Post by OzRose on 28th August 2010, 17:33

Any chance of getting some gigantea seed to play with ?
I love a challenge. Very Happy

cheers. Rosalie
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Re: Fecundity.

Post by Ozeboy on 28th August 2010, 17:53

Sorry Ozrose I only have two 2 year old Gigantea plants that have not yet made hips. Am going to let these loose up some dead Powton trees.

It's difficult getting rooted roses to WA. There are a lot of supposed first cross Gigantea roses around bred by Alister Clark, Lorraine Lee, Lady Mann Cecily Lascelles etc that would be worth playing with. Lady Mann is recomended as a breeder.
All these made plenty of hips for me last Autumn at 2 years of age.
You might find these in some of the WA nurseries


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Re: Fecundity.

Post by Admin on 28th August 2010, 18:30

My seeds, and the ones I sent to Bruce (Ozeboy), came from India!!!! My plant is only two years old as well and is planted at the base of a dead Eucalypt. No flowers seen yet. Hoping this is its year.

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Re: Fecundity.

Post by OzRose on 29th August 2010, 02:27

Sorry blokes, didn't realise they were such newbies in your collections .
Didn't mean to be pushy.
I remember reading about the seeds from India but didn't twig [durr] , then the 10,000 Camellias sidetracked me too.

Getting rooted roses into W.A !!!! I got really frustrated with this years ago . You were limited with what was available locally in the way of OGR/heritage roses but you'd be reading about them being over east and people growing them and would write away for catalogues , enclosing stamps etc etc and get a note back [sometimes] saying "sorry we do not post to W.A" .

Lorraine Lee and Nancy Haywood are certainly available here though ; actually I have Lorraine Lee listed in my notebook as having bought her up here with me when we moved , but I can't think where I would have planted her. Embarassed
Might have to track down another one to have a play with.
Well you have given me something to think about . Thanks fellas.

cheers. Rosalie
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Re: Fecundity.

Post by Guest on 29th August 2010, 09:04

Might be worth checking whether there's an R gigantea at Araluen (or Pinjarra, for that matter).
Various different clones around - the Tealadies don't know whether the one Alister Clark used is still here. I haven't seen one that sounds like the early description (can't remember where) of hips being sold in a market place "like little apples". I didn't do anything special to get seeds growing from the two I tried. A few repeat-flowerers among the seedlings from them but nothing outstanding (as with all my rose-breeding).


Last edited by Margaret on 29th August 2010, 09:07; edited 3 times in total (Reason for editing : addition)

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Re: Fecundity.

Post by OzRose on 29th August 2010, 11:47

Thank's Margaret., Pinjarra's a possibility . I don't go to Perth often but I can go or return via Pinjarra and I know where the Rose garden is by the bridge .
I have to back to see the surgeon who did my back next week so a visit on the way home might be in order [and something to look forward to - I loathe going up to the city tongue ]

I read the description of the hips being "like little apples" too and thought WoW ! that would look pretty spekky . Also interesting about the length of time them remaining on the plant , to be on with the following seasons flowers .
One envisions the seed lying dormant for a long time on the jungle floor , perhaps waiting for a aging forest tree to come down and create a window of light to trigger germination . A bit like our native plants waiting for a bushfire .
Or an elephant or a monkey or whatever to eat the hips and poop out the seeds . The possibilities .....
Sir David Attenborough needs to take a BBC film crew out into the jungle to make some observations Smile

cheers. Rosalie
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Re: Fecundity.

Post by Guest on 29th August 2010, 12:05

I think Pinjarra was pruned this winter by HRiAI members, and then re-pruned by local council staff ay ay ay. So I don't know if there would be hips left on anything, but worth checking.

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Re: Fecundity.

Post by OzRose on 29th August 2010, 13:48

Margaret wrote: .... and then re-pruned by local council staff ....

Aaaaaggghhhhhh. Ohh no. If they are anything like the gardening staff at the Collie Shire Council .....
*shudders* good people , hard workers , keep the parks and things very tidy ....

Not that things are much better here this year after my sister did the pruning , I've just had to grit my teeth and grin and bear it . silent My Golden Showers , Kathleen Harrop , La Rosa Romantic and Reine de Violettes have all been pruned like the H.T's Rolling Eyes oh dear.
Fortunately roses are such forgiving things.

cheers. Rosalie
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Re: Fecundity.

Post by Admin on 29th August 2010, 16:56

There is quite a lot of gigantea around... it's been here for ages. There's a very nice lady on here going by the name of 'Violet' (aka Pam) and she has sent me seed before. She lives on the NSW Sth Coast in Kangaroo Valley I think it is, near Jamberoo (lovely spot). I failed to get these straight gigantea seeds to germinate as well. The seed I recently received from India were from the Manipur strain of gigantea. It's from a little higher up and is meant to be more yellow. Mine spent 8 weeks in the fridge, and then were sown in a tray and placed outside where it is exposed to everything (frost, snow, sun, wind). It's been in the tray since the beginning of autumn with no change. I'll just leave it there to see how it goes.


Last edited by Simon on 31st August 2010, 17:05; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Fecundity.

Post by OzRose on 31st August 2010, 03:49

Can add seeds from Cl. Softee to list of whats in the fridge .
I see on HMF that this is listed as being a triploid .
Of what signifigance is this ?

It's a bonny bush in the garden .
cheers. Rosalie


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Re: Fecundity.

Post by Admin on 31st August 2010, 17:11

Climbing Softee is a sport of Softee so it will probably breed as a non-climber. Most sports do not result in inheritable changes. Ivery rarely use the sports in breeding unless I can't get them original version.

Being triploid usually means sterility, or reduced fertility. Your best fertility is from diploids and tetraploids. Have a look at this article of mine on my blog site. It will explain ploidy in more detail:

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Re: Fecundity.

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