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Bruce... chip budding minis

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Bruce... chip budding minis

Post by Admin on 26th April 2010, 20:05

Hi Bruce,

I was just wondering if you've ever tried chip budding mini roses?

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Re: Bruce... chip budding minis

Post by Ozeboy on 26th April 2010, 22:23

Simon, I have had little experience chip budding minnies other than Delicious which is big for a minnie. The most difficult part is finding suitable buds as they seem to shoot very quickly. The cream coloured buds on a growth cane that have not shot are not at all difficult to work with.
Some buds are very small like Marie van Houtte, Basino and a 10"matt like rose I think was called White Flower Carpet . All were budded recently but lost as I forgot they were there in the ground and dumped some 8"pots on top of them. These buds are just about as small as you would find on some of the smaller minnie roses so can see no reason why you won't get a good success rate.

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Re: Bruce... chip budding minis

Post by Admin on 26th April 2010, 22:42

I like how some of my chip buds have turned out this year. Knowing how small mini buds are do you think T-budding or chip budding is better for them? I've done lots of T-budding and they seem easy to do this way... but I do like the look of the chip budding grafts once they have taken.


Last edited by Simon on 27th April 2010, 18:51; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Bruce... chip budding minis

Post by Ozeboy on 27th April 2010, 09:31

Simon, about 15 years back I read an article from one of the Government Departments, could have been CSIRO. They explained their Chip method produced better growth than T budding hence the reason why I have persevered with the chip method ever since. I do think handling small chip buds is easier than T buds. Sometimes it is necessary to bud out of season so Chip Budding is the only option. If you have quite a few to do then I would suggest trying both ways.

I would think that Patch Budding is not an option but am anxious to give it a try with larger canes and buds. It goes something like this:-
Rootstock. Make a horizontal cut at 90 degrees with knife angled approx 20 degrees just deep until the knife meets the wood. 12 mm above make another horizontal cut but hold knife angle to 90 degrees. Then make a vertical cut between the first two cuts. You should now be looking at a capital I shape cut in the rootstock.

Sion or Variety. The bud is preferably cut starting above the bud with just the thinest possible amount of wood at the back. The cut below to release the bud is made at a 20 degree angle so as to fit the first angled cut in the rootstock perfectly. The chip will have a chisel shaped bottom to help match up the cambium layers well.

Method. Fold back the bark either side of the rootstock vertical cut and insert the bud well into the bottom to match up the two angled cuts. Cut the top of the inserted bud level or just below the top horizontal cut.
Then tape firmly starting at the bottom and half hitch at the top.

This method appeals to me for it is a cross between chip and T budding.

Simon I am sure you will be able to understand this. Anyone that has not done grafting or budding should start by having someone show them the techniques.

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Re: Bruce... chip budding minis

Post by Ozeboy on 27th April 2010, 14:42

Update. Just chip budded 3 Delicious buds and had no problems. The canes under the bloom would have been less than 1mm across. I have new glasses which is needed for this type of work.
The buds are very thin when cut so extra care has to be taken not to crease above or below the bud. If creased below just discard and cut a new one.

I had forgotten how great this little rose is. It is my favourite colour, clear pink, great fragrance, nice high centred bloom to start and is a mass of blooms. A really great little Australian bred mini.

Ozeboy

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Re: Bruce... chip budding minis

Post by Admin on 27th April 2010, 23:19

Thanks Bruce... easy to follow Thumbsup

Reason I was asking is that I was considering budding all my minis onto 1m long standards for a couple of reasons. Fits is comfort Smile Pollinating little flowers at waist height is much more comfy than crawling around on the ground. Second, a contact from RHA, whi is also a member here (Adam Smile ), has mentioned to me that minis that are grafted often show increased fertilty and/or receptiveness to breeding. So, it seems like a good plan all around. I liked the chip budding as it seems to make a nice strong union and was relatively easy to do. Will see how I go.

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Re: Bruce... chip budding minis

Post by Ozeboy on 22nd May 2010, 10:29

Yesterday I visited a friend that gave me my first lession in budding just over 15 years ago and mentioned to him I had settled on grafting by the chip method.
Without prompting he was in favour and mentioned better growth from chip budding.
His nursery comprises around 1/4 acre of rootstocks which are very well looked after with plenty of water as he does mostly standards. The Multiflora is looked after as well as the roses or better to promote long growth.

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Re: Bruce... chip budding minis

Post by Admin on 22nd May 2010, 15:06

Ok... here we go Smile Time for Rant

It's good to see people using multiflora as a rootstock... Dr Phooey has about run it's term of usefulness I think. One of the things I have on my agenda for the coming pollinating season is to try for a more universal root stock (if that's at all possible). If I can find some 'Gloire des Rosomanes' cuttings from somewhere I'm going to put it, Dr Phooey, and Rosa Indica Major onto my multiflora plant (to make 'Multirags' ('Gloire des Rosomanes' is also known as 'Ragged Robin'), 'Multifun' ('Rosa Indica Major' is also known as 'Fun Jwan Lo'), and 'Multiphooey' respectively roflmao ). If I could find 'Manetti' I'd use this as well as this seems to be good for sandy soil.. not as good as 'Fortuniana' but not bad either. 'Fortuniana' is reputed to be as sterile as a post. The rationale is that Dr Phooey seems to be the rootstock of choice for neutral to alkaline soils and multiflora for acidic soils and I reckon there is still some people using 'Rosa Indica Major' out there based on comments Margaret has made in the past; especially for Teas as was its traditional use here in Australia. Maybe by combining them something with a broader tolerance range can be developed. I also like teh idea of having a Tea-based rootstock for Teas because I think having a rootstock that has the same (almost) evergreen tendencies as the scion section would be beneficial to the longevity of both. I think something like this needs to be done because I feel the bulk of the Dr Phooey rootstock in use now is virused and this is responsible for the epidemic spread of the disease in roses so that now some varieties are chronically infected. If they turn out to be good then before they are used as rootstocks the infected varieties need to be cured with heat treatment and the virus can be erradicated. I think everyone who is interested in breeding roses should devote at least part of their efforts on breeding a better rootstock for things like standards. Mr Ralph Moore also developed a multiflora based rootstock that was miniature in stature to bud miniatures onto. The rationale being that a miniature vigorous rootstock would not distort and exaggerate the growth of teh minis budded onto it. This is my MAIN gripe with how minis are produced here in Australia.No-one thinks about these things and we get minis with trunks like standard sized roses. I hate the one-soze-fits-all mentality of rose production here and think it's about time something was done about it *gets off soapbox*.

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Re: Bruce... chip budding minis

Post by Guest on 22nd May 2010, 22:42

Haven't grown Manetti but I remember someone saying "Why would you want such a suckering thing?" That might be why Manetti lost favour as a rootstock (ditto rugosas).
One of Bunnings' backyard breeders must be using Indica major - it's popped up in the middle of my Apricot Nectar. I don't know why it went out of favour, but it might have been too eager to overwhelm the budded bit. There's a lot of it around old SA gardens; a survivor.
I don't know why E Veyrat Hermanos (sold incorrectly now as Mme Berard) fell out of favour as an understock for teas, but it might be because it's a house-eater if it gets loose.


Last edited by Margaret on 22nd May 2010, 22:44; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Addition)

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Re: Bruce... chip budding minis

Post by The Lazy Rosarian on 23rd May 2010, 05:54

Some replies to the above comments and these are mine only.
1. Simon if you can track down any one from Brundretts they might have any or all the forms of rootstock you are after. At one stage they had up to 120 odd forms of rootstock and one that they and others still use today which I call "evergreen", I do not know what it is called by name, used in standards a lot.
2. Manetti was/is used in the cut flower side of roses on red coloured one's as it is reputed to produce a better or deeper colour.
3. Indica major is not used as much because of the thorns and it's limited compatability with soils across Oz.
4. Multiflora is used in it's many forms as it is universal to most of Australian soils, but not in WA as much because of their sandy dominance.
5. The Dr was used by a company in SA for years and I believe they are no longer around, could be wrong, I am talking 20 plus years back. It is the worst rootstock as suckering goes. It will sucker if the plant is stressed, if the stock is injured, any eye that "might " not have been removed completely. Again in my opinion it suckers if you look sideways at it. I could put Dorrothy P in here to, long living, a candidate for suckering.
5. One that has not been memtioned is "sweet briar", seems to not have long shelf life.
6.Simon, on the subject of "Fortuniana", Tony over in WA might be able to help out with it and send some to you or seed of it.
7. Margaret, you don't know the B shop supplier do you, if the roses are in bags the company name is on the lower bottom of it.

These are my observations of rootstock and plants over the last 20 years.
Regards, David from his Rant box as Simon put it.
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Re: Bruce... chip budding minis

Post by Guest on 23rd May 2010, 08:45

That's very interesting, thanks Dave. The plastic bag that Apricot Nectar came in is long gone.
Dr Huey is used a lot in SA.
Multiflora rootstock-suckers as enthusiastically as any in my garden (acid soil).
Sweetbriar is a declared weed in SA, as is the dogrose - I could be fined if I planted either!

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Re: Bruce... chip budding minis

Post by Alee on 23rd May 2010, 11:42

Simon, If I remember correctly, you already have Fortuniana. The Swiss Rose Nursery in Perth mainly use Fortuniana as their rootstock. I have spoken to them a couple of times before and they are very helpful.

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Re: Bruce... chip budding minis

Post by Ozeboy on 23rd May 2010, 12:05

I have used Dr. Huey and Multiflora here in Sydney and found little trouble with suckering unless I get sloppy de eying them. Wouldn't give the job to anyone else for I don't have a problem when I do them.

Perhaps a bud is missed or not cut wide enough to remove all the area that can shoot. Placing blame on different varieties re suckering could be attributed to different de budding operators.

Regards Fortuniana, I have quite a large bush here that flowers beautifully in spring but suffers damping off when planted in beds or potting mix. I have never given it the proper treatment to remove fungus and plant into sterile coconut fibre but if it was better than the above two as rootstock would go to the extra trouble.

One of the main reasons for budding in the first place is to use a rootstock most suitable for the soil in a certain area. If a rose is planted to grow on it's own roots possibly it will struggle if not suitable for that soil.
I an told that Fortuniana roots can grow up to 25 feet long looking for moisture . That alone would make it a good canditate for sandy soils when compared to HT or Tea rose roots which are considerably shorter.

Global Warming is becoming a big problem producing food for the worlds populations. No doubt all those unhealthy roses that depend on sprays to stay alive will become a thing of the past. Hang onto all those roses that come from hot humid areas. Fortuniana might be our best rootstock choice in the near future

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Re: Bruce... chip budding minis

Post by Admin on 23rd May 2010, 13:27

Steps up onto his Rant again.

I offered to send a major rose nursery in SA some of my multiflora seedlings to use as understocks in an attempt to get around the RMV problem... I was tired of receiving infected plants from them. They refused saying that multiflora did poorly in most areas other than Tas. and other areas with acidic soils. They use Dr Phooey by default and are fully aware of the RMV problem. I receive roses from 'Ladybird Rose, that are grafted onto multiflora and never have any issues with them. They are my preferred supplier now. Enough said on that.

The suckering issue with Dr Phooey is one that needs further clarification. You know what a pedant I am for correct useage of words and terms Rolling Eyes, well in this case what we have is not suckering but adventitious, or persistent, roots. By definition a sucker is a shoot that originates under the ground and extends underground to break some distance from the main plant. This is not what happens with Dr Phooey. Dr Phooey has adventitious, persistent roots. This means that a shoot can shoot up from the roots if, as David says, the plant becomes stressed or injured. I have found with Dr Phooey that, when shovel pruning under performing roses grafted onto it, if I don't get all the roots out it will keep shooting from these remnant adventitious roots. I have some potted ones now that have been coming up from adventitious roots from roses shovel pruned or moved more than 3 years ago... the good Dr still keeps coming up in the same place and I keep pulling them up and potting them because they appear, so far, to be RMV free. These can be distinguished from suckers as they don't usually come up very far from the main plant and orginate from a root, not teh main growing trunk. With the Dr it doesn't actually matter how well you de-eye it, it still has the ability to send UP adventitious shoots from the roots, not the main stem. Grafting weaker varieties onto the Dr could be 'interpretted' by it as having a sick growing point, kicking into gear its survival mechanisms. Dr Phooey is also a very poor performer in my acidic soil. Dorothy Perkins has never suckered for me though I have had this same problem with remnant adventitious roots with this variety too. Rugosa suckers in the true sense of the word as do other roses such as 'Leda'. Bracteata does not sucker but has persistent roots. Multiflora does neither sucker nor come up from persistent roots for me here. This ability to shoot from persistent roots is a survival strategy allowing plants to cut off and replace failing parts of itself and regenerate should the main plant become injured or sick and is a propety I think should be bred into roses that are specifically bred to be propagated by cuttings.

I did have 'Fortuniana' cuttings but they apparently do not like it here in my red dirt and all failed.

Multiflora is declared a weed in many parts of the U.S. as well, yet grafting onto it is still permitted.

Sweet Briar (rubiginosa or canina) grows as a weed down here and also doesn't sucker. Don't know how persistant the roots are as I've never tried cutting it out. I have rubiginosa seed in the fridge right now to use in the rootstock project as well. Personally I am having trouble understanding why it is such a successful weed as I've been trying for three yrears to strike it from cuttings and two years to get seed to germinate. Maybe I'm being too kind to them Rolling Eyes

My personal feeling is that if a rose doesn't grow on its own roots in a particular area then you shouldn't grow it. Instead you should find ones that do. We do this with every other type of plant (and accept it or change the nature of the soil to suit it), so why shouldn't we do it with roses? This is just my personal opinion... and you know what they say about opinions... everyone has them (I can't say the full phrase here in polite company). One of my other opinions is that there are only three reasons to graft a rose; one is to stop suckering (in the true sense of the word) another is to make standards and the last is to temporarily propagrate a rose for use as a supply of cuttings... it is easier to post budding material than plants and is generally more reliable than cuttings. Anything else is unnecessary. I've said this before, but the original purpose of grafting roses was to nurse the scion until it formed its own roots and the done thing was to bury the graft deeply to encourage this. If a rose won't grow on its own roots or form its own roots when the graft is buried, no matter how long you leave it, then maybe it never should have been grown in the first place. Mother nature would have selected it for extinction and so should we. Again.. am playing the Devil's advocate here and these are strictly my own opinions that drive my own breeding - the flower is secondary to the plant and herin lies part of the reason for the remontancy poll. The truth of the matter is that if no roses were ever grafted then no rose would EVER have contracted RMV and if my roses can be grown well on their own roots they will NEVER get RMV (they may get other viruses but I am only referring to PNRSV that has been blamed for near 100% of the RMV in roses). For grafting to be the preferred method of commercial production is absurd in my opinion. Just because it can produce more plants more quickly... give me quality over quantity any day. Again, my own opinions...

Steps down from the box.

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Re: Bruce... chip budding minis

Post by Ozeboy on 15th December 2010, 18:42

Simon, the 3 Delicious Minis I budded last April when you last you asked me if I have budded minis. The answer should have been yes as I did have a few given to most of my relatives who fell in love with this rose.

Just wanted to let you know that in a group of 235 roses budded at that time the Delicious have leaves after activating the buds 2 weeks ago. They are far and away the fastest growers from buds to leaves.

Just thought you would like this pretty useless piece of information.

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