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Noisette search

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Noisette search

Post by wphvet on 4th December 2009, 15:04

Dear members of the forum,
Any thoughts where I may obtain a couple of Tea/Noisette roses,?
namely Marechal Niel and Duchesse d'Auerstadt.
I have a climbing trellis as part of a rose bed,with Noisettes and Alister Clarks,but would love some yellow of the same type.
Regards,
Stephen

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Re: Noisette search

Post by The Lazy Rosarian on 4th December 2009, 16:06

Stephen, long time no post, good to see you have started again. Mistydowns on the first and Ladybird Roses on second one Wave
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Re: Noisette search

Post by wphvet on 4th December 2009, 17:21

Many thanks,
While I have not yet participated,I keenly observe and am impressed by the wealth of experience and knowledge,I promise to become a more active member.

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Re: Noisette search

Post by rosemeadow on 5th December 2009, 00:03

I think you can get both at Mistydowns.

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Re: Noisette search

Post by wedge on 5th December 2009, 01:04

Well, i think you guys have answered my question as well. I'll be gearing up next year to start growing some Teas and was wondering where i can purchase them. Thanks for the info.
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Re: Noisette search

Post by Ozeboy on 5th December 2009, 18:26

Rustons have both of those.

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Re: Noisette search

Post by Admin on 5th December 2009, 18:30

Bruce... I've been thinking about this Ruston's thing. For one of use backyarders buying 100+ buds at a time from Ruston's is not a very practical option... but you do it fairly frequently don't you... what would you think of a 'group order'?

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Re: Noisette search

Post by Ozeboy on 5th December 2009, 19:37

Simon, dispatching to various parts of Oz might be the difficulty.
If they all come to me then dispatched to you they would be cut Monday and posted, arriving here next day delivery capital city to capital city arriving here Thursday. If they were then posted to you in Thursdays mail you would possibly get them Wednesday or Thursday. That's 10 days shipping time. In late April that would be possible but in Summer, out of the question.

There is some reason why they won't ship to you, possibly too much red tape to Tassie.

If ever I I went to Ruston's coupled with a holiday then I could collect budwood and dispatch from there. They would last 7 days in reasonably mild weather.

Budwood selection at Rustons is a real credit to them for I get very good results.

I do a bit of budding for other people and results are excellent to very poor due to their selection. My rootstock can vary greatly from potted 2 years old to 2 year or 3 months old in the ground. This all makes it very challenging together with not knowing how much I will need. Sometimes a parcel arrives in the post quite out of the blue just when all I have is rootstock that is very old or very young with just a very small shoot.
This season I planted 450 stocks and had a carry over of 150 two year old stocks and might not have enough to finish the season.

December to January is my stock planting time for April budding. These usually produce those very long canes in September when the buds have been allowed to sleep until end of August. After cutting all my requirements all canes are removed from the mother rootstock ( Multiflora ). The mother plants are then encouraged to grow new canes to be taken off next August.
There is a tendency for older canes to develope those large side shoots if allowed more growing time.

The Mother Multiflora are never budded onto but kept 200 yards from where the rootstock is prepared for budding. I notice overseas propagators use the tops from last season budded stocks to grow another season of rootstocks for budding. That's the fastest way I know of to have a major Mosaic Virus infection unless the buds have been clear.

Possibly not the right place to add these details but am a little lazy today.

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Re: Noisette search

Post by Carole on 5th December 2009, 20:49

Bruce, since you mentioned Mosaic Virus. I have never seen it and nor has David. I have asked other people in the industry and they havn't seen it so could you or any member that has this virus please post a picture and explanatory notes on what to look for. I can only assume that it must be something with an alternative name.
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Re: Noisette search

Post by Admin on 5th December 2009, 20:57

Have a look in the gallery Carole (top of the screen... see the Gallery link)... I have pctures of it there... I am sure you have seen it and may possibly even have it there as it is very widespread (especially in some of the mass produced bagged roses... I have had very poor luck with some of these) and is the scurge of roses in Australia... I pulled out a large pink multiflora I had just today because of it... I won't tolerate it and don't know why others do. If people in the industry 'haven't seen it' I would be very surprised and would be more than a little cynical to be honest. It can, at times, be very hard to see but at other times it can be clear as day.

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Re: Noisette search

Post by Admin on 5th December 2009, 20:59

Bruce... They will post buds to me just fine... they just have large minimum orders that I can't justify or handle. I really want to get some 'Rouletii' budwood but don't want 100 of them. When they arrive do they arrive as long stems that you could strike as cuttings instead?


Last edited by Simon on 5th December 2009, 22:23; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Noisette search

Post by Carole on 5th December 2009, 21:07

Thank you Simon, I will have a look. As I think I said some people might call it by a different name. Now I will have to check.
Dance Dance Dance
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Re: Noisette search

Post by Ozeboy on 5th December 2009, 23:07

The wood is up to 150mm long depending on the variety. The blooms are removed and leaf stems cut to about 10mm long to act as a handle if T budding. If you can strike soft growth OK then some would be suitable.
They are really sending good young growth suitable for budding so would persue that when it arrives. If you have a look at the chip budding details I sent to Dee you shouldn't have any problems getting success. In the meantime would trial a hundred and get your skills up. If the buds stay green and start to swell after the tops are cut off then I would consider buying a few buds from Rustons.

I will send you some more information that I can send direct to your Email address.

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Re: Noisette search

Post by Admin on 5th December 2009, 23:11

I'm actually going to do my first chip buds tomorrow to try this new technique Cool I'm getting very high success rates with T-budding but like the look of the join better using the chip budding.

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Re: Noisette search

Post by Ozeboy on 5th December 2009, 23:23

Carole, Simon has come to the rescue. Mosaic Virus is pretty common, most people don't know they have it unless the plant is stressed. The plant just never seems to be vigorous and sometimes has the typical water mark.

Must admit having had it myself and it was Cree who put a name to it for me.

If you put a bud on any rootstock don't use it again. Have your mother Multiflora plants seperate just for cutting sticks from. Some budders use rootstock over and over again either by putting buds on mother plants to hold them or reuse the tops from budded rootstocks.
imagine putting a virused bud on a rootstock then cutting the top off this now infected Multiflora and making possiblt 10 new sticks from that. Then cutting the tops off these 10 and now making 100 sticks from them.
What a massive problem you would end up with in just 3 years.
The problem is the plants don't show signs of the virus all the time so it's very hard to identify all infected plants.

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Re: Noisette search

Post by wedge on 6th December 2009, 00:04

Simon, is that the same mosiac virus that infects vegies ?? I have a very good friend who used to grow top quality Zucchinis up here and he used to occassionally get mosiac virus. It affected the fruit so he used to pull the plant out immediately he saw it so it wouldn't infect the others. When i used to help him pick his crop, he didn't even like anyone smoking as he explained that there's even viruses that you can get from the tobacco that can infect the zucchinis.
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Re: Noisette search

Post by Admin on 6th December 2009, 00:21

From memory, Dave, that's the Tobacco Mosaic Virus. The one that is infecting roses is actually a range of different viruses but the one that is most prevalent is called the Prunus Nectrotic Ringspot Virus (PNRSV)... we usually lump them all together just as RMV because the average Joe can't tell the difference without laboratory testing (which only costs about $80 per test so IMO is totally worth it for commercial growers). The only way to pass RMV onto a rose is by grafting an infected scion onto a clean rootstock or the other way around. There is a recorded case of transmission by root grafting caused by plants being planted too closely together so their roots could overlap and graft together. It cannot be passed on by cutting/pruning implements, dirty pots, pollen, seeds, aphids, or any other means... such are the myths surrounding RMV. It is thermally sensitive so in periods of very warm weather the virus is mostly killed off in the above ground portions and persists in the roots. Symptoms are usually hard ot find at this time. During periods of cool weather symptoms can reappear... stress doesn't really have anything to do with symptoms appearing though may affect how effectively a plant is able to resist the infection. I've been talking a fair bit with Prof. Malcolm Manners in Florida about this particular virus to understand it better... he's probably the foremost authority on RMV in the world and is curing roses infected with RMV using a technique called Thermal Therapy (which to cut a long story short is basically 38 degrees celcius for 28 days followed by budding onto clean rootstocks)... this is why I have been talking with him as I think something like this should be done here in Australia to try and erradicate the virus... The above transmission method only applies to PNRSV and unfortunately there are other viruses present in roses that cause RMV-like symptoms that CAN be passed on by pollen and seeds etc Dr David Zlesak in the U.S. is working with others at the moment to characterise these other viruses as well so they too can be better understood. It seems that the thermal therapy, however, is effective in treating a large range of them.


Last edited by Simon on 10th December 2009, 01:52; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Noisette search

Post by wphvet on 7th December 2009, 09:33

Re the posting of Roses,
My mother had a large Rose garden in the 60's and 70's and often ordered stock from Roy Rumsey in Dural. We lived in Maitland,Nsw, and she was often exasperated as the order sometimes went vis Maitland ,South aust,before arriving in a rather dead state at our place.An order once went via maitland,sa,then maitland WA.It was really deceased!
I suspect things have improved.

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Re: Noisette search

Post by rosemeadow on 7th December 2009, 12:07

This is all very interesting reading.
I was thinking I might sell budwood latter on when my bushes are bigger
( if they survive this winter ) and I would sell small quantities. But then I would have to work out which ones of my bushes had mosiac virus. The other day I saw that watermark on one of my new Thomas roses, a older Hybred Tea I think it was. I will have to start listing them when I see the affected leaves on them.
I also have it on a weeper I got from Treloars about about four years or more ago.
Simon, do you know if it is possible to have roses tested ? And would it be too expensive for backyard growers ? Also is there a a big rose grower that has Mosiac free roses ?
I might ring Judy at Mistydowns and ask her what they are doing to avoid Mosiac Virus, as they have thje type of roses I want.
Breeding our our roses might be a way to adviod Mosiac virus.

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Re: Noisette search

Post by rosemeadow on 7th December 2009, 12:10

Another question. How come the virus can spread so easily through plant tissue, and yet it doesn't get past on through rose seeds ?

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Re: Noisette search

Post by Admin on 7th December 2009, 21:33

Karen... I have ordered roses from lots of the bigger growers and received virus infected stock from all of them.. I would not say one was any better than the other. There are labs that can test for it at about $80 per test (when I enquired down here in 2008). You can test your own if you have 'Ophelia' or 'MME Butterfly' so I've recently found out. These varieties are used because they are particularly susceptible to RMV and show the symptoms very early and very clearly. You make cuttings of either of these two and bud onto them and wait and see. It's not conclusive evidence but it's pretty accurate (but time consuming). The only documented mode of transmission is by grafting (either onto infected stocks, using infected scions, or by root grafting caused by plants being too close together). The virus spreads through the tissue easy enough and it has been found in pollen (but not seeds as far as I know) but even when infected pollen is used there seems to be some kind of barrier preventing the transmission of the virus because no one has been able to infect an uninfected plant with RMV with infected pollen. This is all from reading the literature and from discussions I've had with Prof. Malcolm manner at Florida Southern College. There are a lot of myths floating around and a lot of bad science being spouted by some on the net but the facts are a little less fantastic. There also seems to be a barrier against the virus in the development of seeds. Malcolm told me just the other day actually, when I asked him whether pollen could be tested, that even if we did find virus in the pollen it did not prove that it was contagious via the pollen because no one has been able to infect an uninfected plant with infected pollen. What you need to understand is that RMV is a group of different viruses (that can sometimes work together even making things worse), and all of them come from other groups of plants. For instance, the most prevalent virus in Australian roses is thought to be Prunus Necrotic Ringspot Virus (PNRSV). This originated in prunus as the names suggests and it is tranmistted via pollen and seeds in prunus. In roses, however, it has not been successful in doing so. That's not to say it never will because viruses mutate and evolve too. There are also other viruses that CAN be passed on via the pollen and seeds... for example we cannot export roses into the U.S. becuase their Dept of Ag. have determined that a virus called rose wilt virus is here and that it is contagious via pollen and seeds etc. I only leant of this yesterday actually when Malcolm said so in his email. So.. the virus thing is much bigger than mpot people realise... I would love to set up a thermal therapy facility here to cure Australian roses too... but that would require big $$$.


Last edited by Simon on 10th December 2009, 01:49; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Noisette search

Post by Alee on 7th December 2009, 22:33

Simon, can you please take some pictures of the steps involved, whlie you do the budding.

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Re: Noisette search

Post by Admin on 7th December 2009, 22:56

I'll do this for the T-budding I do... won't be doing any chip budding attempts until about March, according to Bruce, when my understocks will be ready...

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Re: Noisette search

Post by Guest on 8th December 2009, 22:16

The new Marechal Niel at Ruston's, in the Tea-Noisette-China Collection, (from Thomases' ) turned out to be Duchesse d'Auerstadt. There is one in the main garden but like many MN's, it's not strong. What we hope is a robust clone of Marechal Niel has been planted recently, but it won't be big enough for budwood for a couple of years.

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Re: Noisette search

Post by Balinbear on 10th March 2010, 08:53

Margaret

I thought my MN was growing to strong. I have had a couple that did nothing and passed away. The "one" I got from Thomas's last year is going great guns.

But is it no great loss as I like the Duchesse anyway and surprisingly the one that I had is very slow growing compared to the "one" we got from Thomas's. They are in different spots oin the garden though.

Gary
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