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A different way of germinating seeds without stratification...

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Re: A different way of germinating seeds without stratification...

Post by Admin on 11th February 2010, 22:08

The above seedling from 'Altissimo' rotted... I have since tried again and so far this is the furthest I have got...

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This is an OP seedling of 'Baby Love' from seed I received recently from the U.S. Seedling is just under a week old from cracking to first leaf. The powdery stuff on the cotyledons is Macozeb... been spraying it heavily because fungus us still my main issue. I lost 13 out of 15 embryos I extracted to contamination... working on my aseptic technique Rolling Eyes

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Re: A different way of germinating seeds without stratification...

Post by Admin on 17th February 2010, 21:50

Fingers crossed... I think these guys are going ot make it. Whether they are any good or not I don't know... but they seem to be growing pretty well so far. I've just potted them into a larger pot. There are two OP 'Baby Love' seedlings now as the other one that I thought was going to fail started to sprout leaves.

1st Seedling:

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2nd Seedling:

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Re: A different way of germinating seeds without stratification...

Post by Ozeboy on 19th April 2010, 20:54

Could try a insulated wire stripper, has an adjustment screw as well.

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Re: A different way of germinating seeds without stratification...

Post by Admin on 8th May 2010, 06:57

This is my first successful embryo extraction seedling... just flowered for the first time today Smile

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This is an OP 'Baby Love' seedling from seed sent from the U.S.

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Re: A different way of germinating seeds without stratification...

Post by The Lazy Rosarian on 8th May 2010, 07:07

Simon, this is off topic from what you are doing about non stratification. On a previous GA show Colin Campbell showed some old tricks his dad used in the garden. One was epsom salts to break seed coats, have you or anyone used this or know of it.
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Re: A different way of germinating seeds without stratification...

Post by Admin on 8th May 2010, 07:15

Not specifically with roses. I do know that various enzyme treatments (like Draino) has been tried with some success. The reasoning behind it is that the enzymes digest the seed coat and possibly the suture line between the two halves of the achene allowing moisture to enter and the achene to split more easily. I've been trialling tomato pulp myself. Just put some OP 'Westerland' seeds in the fridge that were treated for a few weeks in tomato pulp. The effect on the seed was quite dramatic. Will see if it influences germination. I'm comparing it to 50 non-treated OP 'Westerland' seeds as well.

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Re: A different way of germinating seeds without stratification...

Post by The Lazy Rosarian on 8th May 2010, 07:18

Is it the acid in the tomato pulp that should/will break the seed coat?
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Re: A different way of germinating seeds without stratification...

Post by Admin on 8th May 2010, 07:28

No actually... you know the jelly-like substance around the outside of a tomato seed? That contains a germination inhibitor and to get the best out of your freshly collected tomato seeds you are meant to ferment them to break down this jelly coat and remove the germination inhibitors. This is an enzyme reaction. From memory (I'll have to go back and re-read my research) this is a pectinase enzyme and there is some evidence to suggest that pectin might be a component of rose seed achenes and possibly the suture. So my reasoning was maybe the production of these enzymes during the tomato pulp fermentation process might also at least scarify rose seeds and may improve the rate of germination and possibly reduce the stratification time (that's a different experiment). I published photos plus a more in depth outline of my thinking on RHA here:

Here is my collection of rather random thoughts...

I was reading about the production of biofuels from the fermentation of grasses etc and found that in the production processes the material must first be pretreated and this was traditionally acheived by using acids to break the cellulose and lignin (they called it lignocellulose) down into their monomers subunits before subjecting it to microbial fermentation to produce ethanol. There are also some bacteria and fungi that have been found that will also do the same thing and that these were preferential to using acidic hydrolysis because they didn't procude fermentation inhibitors that needed to be removed and so make the process less profitable. When pretreatment had been completed the remaining biomass was fermented by both bacterial and fungal processes in much the same way as it occurs in ruminants like cows and sheep and these sugar monomers were metabolised to prodcue ethanol as a byproduct. The inside of a tomato provides an acidic environment adn has resident microbes which I was thinking is how the tomato pretreats its seeds to begin the decomposition of the gelatinous placental tissue surrounding the tomato seed. Interestingly I also found that this gelatinous placental tissue in tomatoes is also very acidic... I assume to protect the seed from contamination. Then I found this abstract (http://www.cababstractsplus.org/abstracts/Abstract.aspx?AcNo=20043168574) which said that tomato pulp was fermented using Aspergillis niger for the purpose of enzyme production and during production cellulases, pectinases, and lipases were produced. Then I remembered that to save tomato seeds from your own fruit you needed to ferment them to break down the gelatinous placental tissue that surrounds them because it contains germination inhibitors (this gives a nice run-down of the process [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] In their natural habitat, wild tomatoes produce fruit that will fall to the ground if not eaten and the fruit will ferment and decompose leaving behind seeds that have been chemically and microbially scarified and ready to germinate. Similarly if eaten seeds are able to pass through the digestive systems of most animals being expelled sans the gelatinous coating containing the germination inhibitors (as all the cherry tomato plants that pop up around here bare testimony too LOL). Then Larry said that old tomatoes produce pectinases which reminded me of the above... The tomato seeds that came out the other end of the 2 week process looked VERY much 'over processed'... where as the rose seeds came out with the outer coating (which looks waxy in a lot of cases), stripped off. By replenishing the metaboliseable material the process continued for the whole 2 week period whereas sources suggest that otherwise it would stop after 4-5 days.

So the hypotheses I kind of roughly came to were that by mixing the rose seeds in with the tomato pulp and encouraging microbial action followed by fermentation I could encourage the microbes to digest the coating of the rose achenes if I could keep the process going by providing fresh tomato pulp every 4 or 5 days. My next hypothesis I wanted to test was that without this out coating the germination inhibitors could be leached out more effectively and quickly that might remove the need for cold stratification. I was also assuming that the gelatinous placental material was very acidic to protect the seeds from contamination from detrimental microbes and the rose achenes would benefit by association and that by providing fresh material the benefit could be extended to reduce the chances of losing rose seeds to contamination as the thickness of the achene was reduced and the first line defence of the achene were breached. What I noticed was that the mixture remained very clean despite being put outside in warm shady place with a muslin cloth over the container. Fungi did grow that resembled penicillium fungi growth that one would see on old orange skins but it looked to be pretty much a monoculture. This formed a skin over the top of the pulp. It gave off a pretty strong odour but didn't show signs of conventional spoiling.

So yeah... that's my kind of random thought processes that resulted in me chucking a bunch of rose seeds into mashed up tomato LOL

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The experiment underway is that I have 50 tomato treated seeds and 50 non-tomato treated seeds in the fridge now. Both put in on the same day. Will leave them in for the same amount of time and sow them together to see if one germinates better than the other.

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Re: A different way of germinating seeds without stratification...

Post by The Lazy Rosarian on 8th May 2010, 07:46

Good reading Simon, interresting about the "pectinase enzyme". Pectin being a great setting agent in cooking, so I wonder if it is the enzyme that holds tomato's together as they are very liquid in appearance from the eye.
What would the effect of green tomato pulp be on your experiment ?
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Re: A different way of germinating seeds without stratification...

Post by Admin on 8th May 2010, 08:08

Dunno Smile Sounds like a good experiment to me Smile

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Re: A different way of germinating seeds without stratification...

Post by OzRose on 25th July 2010, 01:22

I started reading this thread with interest and a bit of "good heavens the lengths that people will go to" eyebrow raising and that was before I got to the shelling of a thousand seeds part . Then a bit further on down the page there is a diagram for a bit of kit that wouldn't look out of place in a spanish inquisitor's tool bag . [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.] I think I'm going to feed all my rosehips to Elizabeth ,
The Very Fat Suffolk and sow the product that comes out the other end.
I can't see me sitting and skinning a thousand rose seeds either.

Keep up the good work fellas.
cheers. Rosalie
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Re: A different way of germinating seeds without stratification...

Post by Admin on 25th July 2010, 13:28

I reckon I've done near 2000 this season... I already have over over 200 seedlings with more than 1000 seeds still in the fridge. The lengths that we go to might seem extreme, however, in the long run people who don't wish to know about them will benefit by being able to grow better roses. Breeding roses is like a game of chess... you need to plan and strategise and in some cases when you think you've hit a check-mate you can invoke a little known move (like an en passant) and get back in the game. Embryo rescue is about trying to move forward when all other methods seem to fail. In the long run we are all winners and people will have better, more appropriate roses for our gardens.

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Re: A different way of germinating seeds without stratification...

Post by OzRose on 25th July 2010, 15:04

You mean you have shelled 2000 seeds ? or sown that many . Either way it's quite a feat.
I wasn't just being facetious though when I said about feeding them to Elizabeth , a lot of things germinate more readily after passing through a herbivore's gut . Some plants have even become so dependant on it , that's the only way they will germinate.

Reading here on this forum has been a big learning curve , previously although I knew the basic mechanics of hybridising roses , I hadn't looked at it in any depth.
I dabbled with doing some hand pollination in the 90's and got a sevral very pretty little roses but The Little Girl's Rose is the only one that survived the marriage bust up and moving gardens .
But that was very basic stuff using what little knowledge I had , what you blokes are talking about is very very intense by comparison .
I'm back dabbling with sowing rose seeds but these are only from hips I have gathered out in the garden . I think these are what you are referring to as OP ? What I am learning from this is which rose varieties are prolific producers of hips and which are not. I'm wondering if this is trait that is being bred out of roses being produced for the "modern" gardener . IE they don't need deadheading as the flower head dies off and is shed and the next flush of flowers starts to form.
I'll have to start taking note of the bushes that seem to exhibit this trait .
But in the mean time , it's keep on reading and learning.

cheers. Rosalie
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Re: A different way of germinating seeds without stratification...

Post by Admin on 25th July 2010, 15:21

That's the best way to do it to begin with. Gather as many OP hips as you can and germinate the seeds. It's the way almost everyone starts. Alister Clark was quoted saying that breeder4s should not ignore the OP hips. Whenever I try a new parent I will sow OP seeds first to get an idea of fertility and germinability of the seeds. A lot of roses are being selected for non-producing traits... sometimes on purpose and sometimes by the nature of the cross. You will come to think about ploidy of roses and get to know terms such as diploid, triploid, and tetraploid and know that triploids are often sterile (though there are many exceptions to the rule). So, keep doing what you are doing Smile And show us some photos of the Little Girls Rose Smile

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Re: A different way of germinating seeds without stratification...

Post by Dave on 25th July 2010, 15:54

You've got me 'hooked' Simon! Can't wait to see the results. Have you talked to Paul Barden about the experiment? Keep up the good work!

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Re: A different way of germinating seeds without stratification...

Post by Admin on 25th July 2010, 17:02

this experiment? I've mentioned it on RHA... so I guess he knows about it.. not personally though. Have talked with Don Holeman about it though... he's a biochemist and knows lots about the chemical nature of the experiment. The experiment is starting to show results too. I had 50 OP Westerland seeds that I did nothing to and 50 that I soaked in tomato pulp for about 2-3 weeks (I had intended to be far more diligent in recording procedures... but... you know Rolling Eyes) and then stratified both lots in peat the same way. I've sown them now and in the non-treated batch I have only got one germination. In the tomato pulp batch I have 6. Hardly statistically significant numbers but it's early days yet.

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Re: A different way of germinating seeds without stratification...

Post by OzRose on 30th July 2010, 01:54

Simon wrote: And show us some photos of The Little Girls Rose Smile

It's my avatar.

Produces flowers singly or more commonly in multiples.
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Re: A different way of germinating seeds without stratification...

Post by Admin on 30th July 2010, 16:50

There is something special about a good single rose and IMO single roses are not created equal. This one is a lovely example of a nicely balanced, full, symmetrical single. Some singles lack body and just look gawky. I like to see nice wide overlapping petals. Is this a bush or a climber? It's quite uncommon to see flowers like this on a bush rose. What are the parents and how does the bush look/behave? Is it nice and healthy and vigorous? Does t repeat? It almost looks like it has species influence and might make an excellent breeder.

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Re: A different way of germinating seeds without stratification...

Post by Admin on 24th August 2010, 21:26

Any chance of giving a few more details (if known) on your single white rose OzRose? It's quite lovely! What kind of plant does it make and is it remontant?

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Re: A different way of germinating seeds without stratification...

Post by OzRose on 25th August 2010, 02:45

Lots of questions. Lets see how I go. Smile

1. Seed parent ; the lovely floribunda "Bernina". Has thick waxy ivory white petals and beautiful [to me anyway] perfume .
2. Pollen parent ; the single shrub "Carabella".

This cross dates back to 1996 and my rose garden that I had living on the farm in Donnybrook, and like I said previously , I was just dabbling and making my first attempts. Pollination was pretty hamfisted [bees would have had more finesse] basically did it like hand pollinating pumpkins and melons . Embarassed Really it was more having a go to see if anything would result from it than anything and I had just inherited a copy of "For Love of a Rose" from my great aunt's estate to inspire me.
It was a marriage of convenience more than anything else , both being close to each other in the garden [and ready at the same time] I did a couple of other crosses around the same time but didn't result in any seed being set.
Sowed the seed when the hip ripened and ended up with around 1/2 dozen seedlings . But then roses and rose breeding and practically everything else got put on a backburner when became pregnant in the August , with as it turned out , triplets.
One of the seedlings flowered in the spring , I can remember being sort of dumfounded at this little tich of thing flowering in it's pot . All of about 6" high and a nearly normal sized flower on it , it was so comical . I have a pic of it somewhere ; the flower was very similar to that of "Iced Ginger" .
Things didn't go as well for me and the triplets were born at 24 weeks which was too prem for them and eventually I lost all three . Three little girls.
When I eventually returned back home to the farm from Perth , things weren't so good there either . The pots with my rose seedlings in hadn't got watered and all bar one had died.
The Little Girls Rose.

Back to the Questions. Smile

3. I still have the original seedling/plant . On it's own roots as a youngster , it was of a shrub type around 5' high ;
took two people to dig it out when I moved . It then spent about 6 years getting lugged around the countryside in a big pot. I'd say it's pretty tough. It has been in the ground the past 5 years but I have just re-potted it as I wasn't happy with where it was planted.
4. Definitely remontant ; has distinct flowering flushes and will set fat little hips if not deadheaded .
5. Vigorous ? yes the seedling plant was when planted out in the garden in Donnybrook . It hasn't really had much of a chance to show it's full potential for a few years but this is the year my roses get some long awaited attention .
Back somewhere around 2002/3 , the lady who had the rose nursery just outside of Donnybrook took some budwood from it and budded up a plant for me. That too has been living in Rosebush Bootcamp since 2004 and has developed into a nice sturdy little bush despite the lack of pampering. Again I'm hoping for something special this year after some long awaited tlc.. yep , pretty tough.

That's most of it's background I think.

cheers. Rosalie
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Re: A different way of germinating seeds without stratification...

Post by Guest on 25th August 2010, 14:47

Hello! Wave

I, like Simon, have wondered about your beautiful rose and I am glad you shared your story OzRose. Even without knowing the depth (aka history) behind it - that always attracts me to a rose - 'The Little Girls Rose' is an eye catcher...it is obviously a rose that doesn't have to yell to be noticed & that makes it even more special IMO! I would grow your rose & tell her story if I ever have the chance!

The parentage of your rose is very interesting & it is great to see an older Aussie-bred rose was used as the pollen parent even if it wasn't planned. I have just bought 'Spring Song' & 'Gay Vista' to grow with 'Carabella' & 'Honeyflow' so I might have to see what they can do...just need to find 'Kwinana' again now!

Also, I grow 'Bernina' & agree that she is lovely!

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Re: A different way of germinating seeds without stratification...

Post by Admin on 25th August 2010, 18:00

Rosalie,

It's a wonderful combination! 'Carabella' is on my list of roses to get to work with myself and combining it with a floribunda is very smart... I bet it has excellent sprays of flowers. Damo and I have a bit of a 'thing' for good single roses Smile There is something very special and pure about good white singles... even better that it's a large carefree shrub IMO. I'd also buy it. I also think it would be VERY worthwhile to use in further breeding. I'm looking forward to seeing more photos as time goes on.

Make sure you have a look at this link if registering your rose ever becomes something you would like to do: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

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