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Blow Offs. (New Budded shoots )

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Blow Offs. (New Budded shoots )

Post by Ozeboy on 23rd September 2009, 13:33

Yesterday (Tuesday ) the weather forcast was for 100klm gale force winds Wednesday.
I have about 80 late August activated buds varying from 8" to 12" long and all are red coloured and very soft. They are nearly all Tea's and send out a long first cane so blow offs are a real possibility.
Despite being in bed with a virus, out I went in pyjamas and cut them off to 4". Noticed this morning they are all OK. Could this be the rose growers disease people speak of ?

Ozeboy

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Re: Blow Offs. (New Budded shoots )

Post by rosemeadow on 23rd September 2009, 14:02

Bruce, I am sorry to hear that you are not well and I hope you get well soon.
Also I hope all you young grafts survive.

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Re: Blow Offs. (New Budded shoots )

Post by The Lazy Rosarian on 23rd September 2009, 14:09

Bruce, I am [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.] my head with the word, activated, could you explain please.
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Re: Blow Offs. (New Budded shoots )

Post by Admin on 23rd September 2009, 20:44

Are these in pots Bruce? This is why I now bury the graft when I'm putting them in the ground here. The wind is frequently strong enough to blow a dog of a chain and I've found they are more stable if I bury the graft and less likely to blow-off.

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Re: Blow Offs. (New Budded shoots )

Post by Ozeboy on 23rd September 2009, 23:34

Simon, I don't worry about covering the grafts now when in 8" pots and usually never get blow offs except when there are wind gusts over 100klms
All the Tea roses send out a single long cane which makes them more likely to break. The others and HT's never seem to suffer this problem so if budding Tea's then be aware. When budding stocks in the ground I usually hill them up covering the buds.

David, activating buds is when the top of the rootstock is 50% broken down or cut off completely. If the plant is non replaceable then I usually nick 50mm above bud and directly behind the first nick then bend over the stock at that point. Then cut it right off 4 weeks later. The nicks are to avoid plant shock which could result in the plant dying.

I ending up a bit lazy after seeing how well some of the Standard budding went so well.

Propagating is like making Christmas cakes, not everyone does it the same.

Thanks Rosemeadow for your best wishes, all were OK this morning.

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Re: Blow Offs. (New Budded shoots )

Post by rosemeadow on 24th September 2009, 08:47

Thats all very interesting to know, Bruce and Simon.

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Re: Blow Offs. (New Budded shoots )

Post by Admin on 24th September 2009, 20:27

Bruce... digressing a little here... are you still doing those 'punched' bud grafts? Would you be interested in doing a little 'punched' bud grat tutorial for here? If you have any photos you can send them to me and I'll resize them etc and put them up for you... I've bought a series of oval metal punches and have spent the winter grinding and honing the edges to a sharp edge on an oil-stone so am keen to see how it's done. The understocks are beginning to shoot here so it won't be long before budding can start down here Smile

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Re: Blow Offs. (New Budded shoots )

Post by Ozeboy on 25th September 2009, 22:12

Simon, I had a lot of very interested people contact me re this tool, I referred them to Dao ( Good Guy )as he came up with the idea. How original? who knows as there are references to round blades used in a mechanical grafting machine published in the 1970.

Basically it is a tube sharpened at one end then squashed slightly to make it oval to facilitate removal of the chip by twisting the tube punch.
Providing the stock and sion are the same diameter it works very well. Unfortunatly we come across a lot of variation in diameters when working so I found it a nuisance rather than a help. The fact that the oval blade is squashed and not machined to oval shape the tool has to be used same way up each time. I did have a perfect oval blade made by programming a NC mill so it could be mass produced, ( Big Expense ). This could be used anyway up and the bud fit would be perfect.

The method was to push the tool into the bark of the stock, remove the punched out bark, repeat again cutting the sion bud and insert that into the stock. The tool I protyped had a spring loaded push out plunger for commercial use. The blade was oil hardened tool steel which would have lasted many uses.

Simon you have gone to a lot of trouble sharpening a tube which will work well, just use it as a hand pushed punch cutting the bark into the wood.
Because it is not oval then lift the round cut bud out with the point of your budding knife. Takes a little longer but will work OK. If you sharpened it on the outside only and have the edge with an inward roll that will probably pull the plug out without having to pick it out. All you need then is a push out rod.
I did put 4 buds on a rose that other propagators mentioned was almost impossible to commercially bud due to the low number of takes. The punch tool came up with 3 buds out of 4 taking, a very good result for a rose with that reputation. Variation in size of Sion and Stocks is its downfall. Also sharpening an oval blade is difficult trying to keep the cutting edge at the same depth.

I have used Olfa Snap Blade knives with the 20mm wide ( approximate ) blades for general budding during the past 15 years. These work well if kept sharp on a good fine oilstone. The blades are very thin which is an aid when cutting thin buds. Because the blade point is angled back at the top this can be slightly rounded to be used to lift the bark when T budding.

Sorry I do not have any pix as my son with the camera does not come home very often.

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Re: Blow Offs. (New Budded shoots )

Post by Ozeboy on 26th September 2009, 17:57

David, speaking of activating buds reminds me of a commercial propagating friend that had a few hundred HT's like Mr Lincoln etc. budded with the tape still on and bud totally wrapped.
They were covered in grass so I had to part the grass to have a good look.
He mentioned that he would leave them a few months and activate them later in the season as the property was very dry and forcast was little rain until Autumn. Being a commercial grower the amount of water used makes them profitable or unprofitable as you no doubt know.

I still have cousins in Mudgee but they like myself are getting quite old.
One has made over 100 just fantastic dolls which are her pride and joy.
I do miss Bill Cox whom I used to visit regularly. Max Spratt has invited us up numerous times but we just don't seem to get there. Anway that's life but will have to make the trip hopefully this autumn.

Bruce.

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Re: Blow Offs. (New Budded shoots )

Post by rosemeadow on 26th September 2009, 21:58

If you have time when you come to Mudgee, I would love you to come visit me. You could get some budwood if you liked. I could take you to visit Lynette's garden as well..
I am coming down to Sydney each weekend now while Ray has his treatment. I was wondering if I could come visit you on one of my trips to learn about chip budding ?

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Re: Blow Offs. (New Budded shoots )

Post by Ozeboy on 27th September 2009, 21:33

Karen you would be most welcome, anytime suitable to us both. How is Ray? hope you have found the right medico for advice and treatment.
There are a few hospitals and doctors in Sydney that shouldn't be allowed to practice.

Just try to allocate half a day here so we can go through the procedure without rushing. I know Ray is your first priority but see how it works in with his treatment.

Ozeboy

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Re: Blow Offs. (New Budded shoots )

Post by rosemeadow on 29th September 2009, 23:40

Thankyou very much Bruce. Yes, a half a day would be great. I will try to work out tomorrow when so I can suggest it to you.

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Re: Blow Offs. (New Budded shoots )

Post by Ozeboy on 5th October 2009, 18:48

Warning to anyone budding Tea roses. The first initial growth in 6 weeks could have been 2 feet long had I not have cut them off. Even the second shoots are over 12". Staked and tied them up today as there were storms around.
I have budded HT's for about 15 years but can't believe the first initial growth from these Tea roses.

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Re: Blow Offs. (New Budded shoots )

Post by Carole on 5th October 2009, 21:41

Bruce that is amazing growth in 6 weeks, are you growing them outside or have you got a greenhouse or shadehouse now that you are growing them in.

I presume you don't mean from budding to 6 weeks or if you did can you explain to me how you achieved this.

I would love to see pictures if you can get some.
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Re: Blow Offs. (New Budded shoots )

Post by Admin on 5th October 2009, 22:18

Bruce... what variety is this? I have budded Teas of an unknown one Karen sent me and it has stood dormant since last August and only just started to shoot and has reached about 3" long over the last few weeks. The cutting of 'Comtesse de Labarthe' also seem extremely slow to take off as are the cuttings of 'Lady Hillongdon', 'Mons Tillier' and 'Souv. de MME Leonie Veinnot'. "Montrose" still hasn't shot form last year though it is still a nice healthy green. My budded gigantea is growing the fastest with a shoot about 4-5" long over the last 3 weeks or so. The bought ones; 'St Francis Xavier' and 'Francis Dubreuil' are growing slowly too. 'Safrano' is growing fast with 12" shoots since planting. 'Lady Huntingfield' (classified an HT but I don't think I agree) is also growing fast... about as fast as 'Safrano'. Must be our differing climates. Some of my roses have still hardly got any leaves yet.

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Re: Blow Offs. (New Budded shoots )

Post by Ozeboy on 14th October 2009, 10:53

Carole, Simon, I have responded in detail to answer your questions three times only to find being disconnected when pressing send.

May give it another try when the site is up to scratch.

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Re: Blow Offs. (New Budded shoots )

Post by wedge on 14th October 2009, 11:37

Good morning Ozeboy. I would be extremely grateful if you could show me a little of what you have been discussing on this topic when i come to visit in a few weeks, if that's ok ??
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Re: Blow Offs. (New Budded shoots )

Post by Ozeboy on 14th October 2009, 11:45

Hi Carole and Simon, have tried to respond 4 times but posts don't appear or I'm disconnected

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Re: Blow Offs. (New Budded shoots )

Post by Admin on 14th October 2009, 20:30

When did you try last? I can't really explain the problems as I'm not experiencing any of them myself. What I usually recommend, and try to do myself, for long and/or detailed replies, is to try and do them in MS Word, or some other word processing program first and then, if something happens I have a record of it and can copy-and-paste it in without having to re-type it.

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Re: Blow Offs. (New Budded shoots )

Post by Ozeboy on 15th October 2009, 23:10

Sorry Guys but have responded 4 times and my posts are not showing. Hope this brief note will see if a longer post will appear.

Ozeboy

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Re: Blow Offs. (New Budded shoots )

Post by Ozeboy on 15th October 2009, 23:13

Simon and Carole, The buds were put on last April and activated in August.

They were Rosette Delizy
Maman Cochet
Argosy
Monsieur Tillier
Marie van Houtte
Lady Mann
Peace 1902

Ozeboy

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Re: Blow Offs. (New Budded shoots )

Post by Ozeboy on 11th November 2009, 21:08

Hi Simon, should have answered your post some time back. The buds were of Gigantea, Rosette Delizy, Maman Cochet, Marie Van Houtte, Monsieur Tillier, Rosette Delizy, Lady Mann and Mr Williams. The last being contract budded.

The buds were put on in April and activated mid August. The rootstock (Multiflora) was in pots which is a real disadvantage as it is impossible to get the right moisture to have consistant sap flow.
Next year I will plant them straight in the ground, in rows 2' 6" apart with 6" spacing.

I have been budding onto 12 months old rootstock as well this last month using the Chip budding technique I outlined. Am still getting good results despite nothing is ideal. The benefit of this budding method is it enables you to get almost perfect cambium contact over a larger area. Possibly needs a little more description or discussion to really see the benefits.
I can't emphasise how budded stocks need TLC after budding to get excellent results. Further more budding at the right time of the year is most important.

Ozeboy

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Re: Blow Offs. (New Budded shoots )

Post by Ozeboy on 11th November 2009, 21:14

Simon I have replied to your post but nothing seems to come up after spending half an hour going into great detail.

Bruce

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Re: Blow Offs. (New Budded shoots )

Post by Admin on 12th November 2009, 00:14

I see the post *shrugs*

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Re: Blow Offs. (New Budded shoots )

Post by Ozeboy on 23rd January 2010, 16:21

Carole, the budding is done in early April and allowed to stay with tape on until mid August when they are activated. The rootstock was planted in August, budded April and activated August so there is a lot of root growth pushing one little bud.

Simon, most of the Tea's gave this blow off problem due to the long initial growth. Mr. Williams was the worst as his canes are now up to 2 metres long and still in 8" pots.
I usually contribute poor initial growth to imperfect cambium contact. When the callus builds up then the buds slowly initiate better growth.
Must add very young rootstock planted in the ground is better as the moisture is more consistant so takes are better. Older rootstock is difficult to bud as it's never quite clear how well cambium contact is. If you get it right then the buds on this older rootstock just explode into growth.

I am a little reluctant to suggest this or that method the best as we seem to build up skills handling buds certain ways.
The CSIRO did some T bud and Chip bud plants and concluded the Chip method gave better growth. The book I mentioned by R J Garner mentiond chip budding to be the best. Just be aware that cambium contact is most important and any method that improves this is the one to go for.

I am no expert and only do up to 1000 a year. My speed would not get me a job as a budder in a commercial nursery.
I do get my rewards by being able to increase my roses so simply.

One of my highlights was to bud and save David Clarks mothers rose that died but the buds lived. David now has this rose and another rose that probably would have been lost.

It's a worthwhile skill, you don't have to get 90% takes but enough for your own uses.

Ozeboy

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Re: Blow Offs. (New Budded shoots )

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