Re: Rose Talk Forums

[Simon]

Yep... I feel the same way Bruce about the photos Deb has posted. I've not had the pleasure of meeting Larry (have read some of his posts and know he is a VERY eloquent and knowledgeable man and I wish him a speedy recovery in the future) but it wasn't until Deb started posting photos of her Teas that I started thinking about them and now... well... the rest is history... Comtess de Labarthe (Duchess de Brabant) has kicked into gear and has doubled in size in the last month and pretty much all the Tea cuttings have struck (I like that in a rose) and I too think they are the way to go and suit my minimalist approach to gardening better than most others. There are some DAs that I still really want to try. Constance Spry is the top of my list and I'd like to breed with some of the better ones but overall I just see them as another modern rose with a lot of the modern problems. Now... DA has never tried to hide the fact that he first and formost selected for beauty (of bloom) ahead of everything else so I really don't expect that much of them. In recent times he has started selecting for disease resistance (like Mrs Doreen Pike... a DA stlyed hybrid rugosa that is very hardy and disease resistant and has nice shrub form... check it out here: http://helpmefind.com/plant/pl.php?n=4307... this rose is my inspiration to want to breed with R.rugosa) and hardiness as well as a better form in European climates. I think there is much to be learnt from the way he did it though. He, like every other thinking person on the planet, was tired of the HT monopoly and knew people wanted something different. He decided to take the old roses and put them with modern roses to introduce old rose form with new rose remontancy. Now if someone over here was to do the same thing but instead of putting modern HT and floribunda into the old roses they put in the Teas instead I think we could have a product more suited to Australia with all the charm of the floofy DA style roses. They will never replace the Teas but they would help to make modern shrubs that are better here in a greater variety of forms. Bruce... I'd love to see B R Cant. Do you have any photos? The account of it in the Tea book makes it sound like a very desireable garden plant and it appears to be quite fertile. I have a list of Tea cuttings that have taken here. I'll PM you the list and you are welcome to any of them come winter when I knock them all out.

[roseman]

Simon, how much "Constance Spry" do you want. C.

[Guest]

Tasv says.... Now if someone over here was to do the same thing but instead of putting modern HT and floribunda into the old roses they put in the Teas instead ...

Tas what do you call an HT? Teas crossed to Hy Perpetual and like, which came from the old European roses. HP and HT both suffer from decreased tolerance of heat and blackspot, which came from their cold climate old rose side of the family. ( also picked up more black spot along way when richer colours had to be bred in).
BTW all you have to do then, is work on getting a damask fragrance, darker pigments (and unusual colours) and get rid of the dam twiggyess so they stand up nice in a vase and you again will have followed the last 100 years of rose breeding ideals.
JMHO

Don't know how others find them but rugosas are a total failure in my garden. Nice spring bloom then they promptly turn to toast (not sure which looks worse, dead burnt rugosa leaves or blackspot riddled leaves, a choice of 2 evils I prefer to pass on). Seen some in Sydney in a public garden the they looked just like mine. Also saw some a private garden in Sydney and they looked the same. Asked a friend in QLD he says he can't grow them. It would make sense they do not like the heat and humidity, after all they grow wild in Alaska, Siberia and the snowy northern regions of Japan. I bet they are hardy little devils, however hardiness, (in the UK and USA meaning tolerant to cold) is something I don't need right now.

[Guest]

I would like a seperate forum for DA's.
I can't grow them in my area, (must be a testament to my poor gardening skills and lack of love and dedication) so a seperate forum saves me the time of looking at posts I am not real interested in.

mmmm .... perhaps not your gardening skills but I do get the drift that you don't like them .... so possibly your lack of dedication to them and your obvious dislike of them.
I'm sure that (as with other roses) there are some that don't do so well over here, perhaps you were unlucky with the choice of DA's you selected, having said that, it would be interesting to hear why you can't grow them.

Susan Irvine had this to say about DA's ... "They seem to cope well under Australian conditions, some growing considerably larger than the estimated sizes given in English books" .... Garden of a Thousand Roses.

I'd have to agree with her, my own DA's have grown much larger than estimated in any book or catalogue.

Their Dural nursery is kept reasonable with an abundance of fungacides and some pestercides.

I don't know about anyone else here, but the only thing I spray any of my plants with is Seasol ... and I feed my soil regularly with manures and homemade compost, I don't use any chemicals in my garden and for many years now I've always believed that using chemicals (including artificial fertilisers) on a regular basis is not good for gardens ... I am positive they must create some sort of 'weakness' in plants .... much the same as a chemical dependance affects humans.
I often also wonder how many 'new' gardeners have inadvertently killed their plants with the use of chemicals due to their lack of knowledge while all the time thinking they are 'helping' their garden to resist pests & disease.

Pardon my frankness , there are better roses than the PBR's at the nurseries but they won't tell you about them as they can't make money from them.

I agree ... unfortunately this is a sad fact of life in this money driven world we live in.

[Simon]

Cree... I I agree with your senitments... and I think it worth noting that I have not said anywhere that this is what I want to do. These are your words only. I call an HT anything classed officially as an HT and I know the line is blurred in early HT but as far as I am concerned this is irrelevant. I don't want to use HT at all. Some floribunda have a form and habit that I like and would consider using them. Please re-read what I have said. I said there is much to be learnt by the way he has done it and I am not talking about the marketing machine that is DA roses. I am talking about working old rose shape and form into a modern rose and that it would make sense to do this with Teas instead of HT (of any incantation) or floribunda for Australia. Everything you say is true and you know I agree with you. I agree with you on most things. I would, however, prefer that if you have a point that you don't direct them at me and just make your point.

[roseman]

Bulbinella, You certainly talk a lot of common sense I really hope you continue to contribute to the forum. I personally like all sorts of roses. The only ones I won't buy are singles they do nothing for me. We have one or two but only because they were here when we moved here, David refuses to let me get rid of them. I look forward to reading your postings Carole.

[Guest]

Ok you want my DA history and stats. I'll try to remember.

I planted my first DA around 1989 I think (so that means I have been growing them for 20 years). Wow were they nice roses. Let see, Mary rose, Pretty Jessica, Constance, Gerty, Sophie, I don't remember I think about 12-15. What great roses they were. Most bloomed in abundance for the whole season which was mid June till the first frost which was early Oct (4 months). This was Washington State, very cool short summer, lots of rain and moderate winters with a little snow..just about like England.
Moved to Bellingen NSW, hot steamy and rains all summer long, planted 6 about a week after I moved in, was a total failure. Mary rose, Graham T, can't remember the rest. They were awful, blackspot, no leaves, nothing nice say about them. Had to take them out and toss them before I sold house as they were an eyesore.
Came here, Hot not very humid. Friend gave me about 20, new plants that came from a nursery. Been in the ground 6 years now. All are gone now except for; Mary rose does ok and will stay. Pilgrim is full of blackspot and leafless most of the year I need to get it out but is so big and thorny I will have to hire someone. Jane A gets mildew and almost no repeat. Crocus blackspot, defoliates, a few blooms during the rest of the year. Sophy mildew in spring, blackspot the rest of year, flowers crisp from Nov through March. Charles A, mildew and blackspot, poor repeat. LDB flower crisp on all but the coolest of days, blackspot all summer, needs to go. Gerty almost no repeat needs to go. Dark Lady maybe, blackspot and defoliated most of the year, flowers crisp in summer. I think there are couple more out there. Culture, water every week more often in summer. Sheep 4" deep 3 times a year. Sudden impact spring and autumn. Lucerne mulch 2 x a year. No spray. Same as all the roses in my garden.

Do I hate them, not at all. If I hated them why would I have planted them in the last 3 gardens over the last 20 years? They are just not suitable for where I have lived in 2 out of 3 locations. They don't like the heat, nor do they like humidity. I can show beautiful pic's of them taken in spring from this garden, the rest of the year they look bad. If I moved to Sweden I would not be growing tea roses, eh? Not suitable.

As far as trying more DA's in this garden, only if they have a published pedigree so I can see what is in them. If I see warm climate roses then I would be very open to try it. Does Tea Clip have tea in it? and what else? Who knows, so I will leave it on the shelf and spend my money on classes of roses I know do well here.

Tasv,
Maybe I am not being clear. What I am trying to say is if you cross teas with old cold climate roses, you will in many cases bring in blackspot and certainly loose the tolerance to heat that warm climate roses have in spades. End result of old Europeans and teas = HT or similar with all the same problems.
But at least you would have avoided the yellow breeding and that I guess could make a difference. Ditto, great minds think alike..(Well sometimes). LOL

[Guest]

Roseman I thought Mermaid was you favorite rose. I remember you trying so hard to make me plant it on a arch over a path.

[Simon]

Tasv,
Maybe I am not being clear. What I am trying to say is if you cross teas with old cold climate roses, you will in many cases bring in blackspot and certainly loose the tolerance to heat that warm climate roses have in spades. End result of old Europeans and teas = HT or similar with all the same problems.
But at least you would have avoided the yellow breeding and that I guess could make a difference. Ditto, great minds think alike..(Well sometimes). LOL

Again... I agree with you on this. It is important to choose the parents carefully and it is funny that you bring up Mermaid because this rose could well be part of the answer and I am a big fan of this rose for many reasons. The work being done with the hybrid bracteata is inspiring and showing excellent results in climates very similar to our own. Of the hybrid bracteata Mermaid is available here in Australia. My first choice would be Muriel or Out of Yesteryear (this is a most beautiful rose) but I can't locate them anywhere (if anyone knows of them here I would walk over hot coals to obtain specimens). If you had the space to train a Mermaid over an arch and tame it ruthlessly then why not... it has much to offer. Personally I have chosen to purchase the species rose, Rosa bracteata, and start a line of my own but Mermaid might also hold the key to alternative work and would be an excellent acquisition. You can keep Mermaid under control if you really wanted too.. if I can tame Rosa laevigata then anything is possible. I asked someone once how big such and such a rose would get (the details escape me right now... it was a long time ago) and their answer was 'it will get as big as I allow it to get. I thought fair enough... I'm all for choosing the rose to suit a position and letting it have its way but if you had your heart set on putting a Mermaid on an arch... then who am I to comment?

Annette... conversations on RT seem to have a way of 'evolving'. I think so long as people are rational then this is a healthy thing. I feel this conversation evolving in the direction of hybridising.... so I'm going to ask that this thread stops and I'll start a new one in the hybridising section. I would ask everyone else to direct their thoughts in this direction.