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Sucker shoots

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Sucker shoots

Post by paulh on 22nd February 2015, 01:50

I always sucker shoots came from below the graft, well, I have a couple of roses that are sending out suckers from the top of the graft. My roses are grafted onto Fortuniana and these suckers are definitely Fortuniana, There is even a normal branch that is growing low down horizontally that has a sucker coming from it. Is this a normal state of affairs????
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Re: Sucker shoots

Post by neptune on 22nd February 2015, 01:56

Paul, can you put up a photo of this , please......
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Re: Sucker shoots

Post by paulh on 22nd February 2015, 02:09

neptune wrote:Paul, can you put up a photo of this , please......

Certainly John, will do
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Re: Sucker shoots

Post by Alya on 22nd February 2015, 02:31

Neptune

I wonder what is wrong? What happened to my post?

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Re: Sucker shoots

Post by neptune on 22nd February 2015, 02:43

I haven't seen a post here , Alya, of yours... maybe after you wrote one you forgot to press send.....(I have done this before) and then went onto another topic......
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Re: Sucker shoots

Post by Alya on 22nd February 2015, 03:34

I try again:

Perhaps the good side to this state of affairs is that to put the sucker into a good use making it a rootstock for one of your creations if you do grafting then post your new rose for us to see!

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Re: Sucker shoots

Post by paulh on 22nd February 2015, 23:46

neptune wrote:Paul, can you put up a photo of this , please......

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Re: Sucker shoots

Post by AutumnDamask on 23rd February 2015, 11:33

Looks like it is on the graft. scratch Mis-grafted or sport??
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Re: Sucker shoots

Post by SueH on 23rd February 2015, 13:47

I agree Autumn. Don't cut it off yet Paul!

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Re: Sucker shoots

Post by Alya on 23rd February 2015, 19:05

The suckers I have come across always had 7 leaves with light/Apple -ish green and fine texture and saw toothed edges.

Yours don't have this features Paul. I agree that you might have a new sport. I would leave it  and encourage it to flower and see what happens.

Sometimes some roses send that sort of shoots  trying to grow horizontal ground cover shoots. Or maybe yours have rambling rose ancestors!!!

Some send very very tall stiff  branches make you think that what you have is a climber.

The wors case might be:
Do you know what the Fortuniana leaves look like? Comparison would give you  an idea too.

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Re: Sucker shoots

Post by paulh on 24th February 2015, 00:50

I do have a Fortuniana rose, tomorrow I'll cut a piece of each and compare them. I will post the photos of both. thanks guys oops and gals

Well, I've compared the said plants, I have discovered, whilst initially viewing 3 leaves, I have now discovered some have 4 and some have 5 leaves.

to me they look the the same as Fortuniana, which of course is what they are grafted onto.

Anymore ideas?

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Re: Sucker shoots

Post by Ausrose on 25th February 2015, 04:10

I had a miniature that grew what I thought was root stock and I was on the verge of pulling it out as it had taken over but I hesitated and let it grow and it turned into a climbing miniature. When I get a chance I am going to register it. As a result of my experience I would wait and see.

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Re: Sucker shoots

Post by Balinbear on 25th February 2015, 22:24

Ausrose wrote:I had a miniature that grew what I thought was root stock and I was on the verge of pulling it out as it had taken over but I hesitated and let it grow and it turned into a climbing miniature. When I get a chance I am going to register it. As a result of my experience I would wait and see.

We had the opposite when I though Fellenberg (a climbing china) that we have on a stand was finally starting to climb. Unfortunately it was multiflora rootstock.
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Re: Sucker shoots

Post by Alya on 25th February 2015, 22:42

The Patent details for Mothers Love Rose:

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According to Page 400 of Peter Beales's Classic Roses Book published in 1985 ISBN 0-00-272708-0, the rootstock Fortunuana is  thought to be a cross between R. Banksiae and R.Laevigata which is not known in the wild. Fortuniana has large, scented, double, white flowers, almost thrornless, resembling R.Banksiae, with slightly darker green leaves and stems.   We can see the leaves of Fortuniana  in the Pictures paulh provided.

The pictures and the description of the leaves of Mother's Love are broad ovate shaped.

Mother's Love's mother is Futura and itis Hybrid Tea the picture of Futura taken from helpmefind.com:

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The HT roses I have have and I know all have more rounded leaves including the Futura rose.

Out of  curiosity I have done a bit of search about the family tree of the Mother's Love :


MOTHER'S LOVE

MINIATURE
ALSO CALLED TINLOVE
Bred by Dee Bennett, USA, 1989
Parentage: Futura x Party Girl


Futura: Hybrid Tea.
1970 to 1979
Color: Orange-Red and Orange-Red Blend
Class:  Hybrid Tea
Bred by William A. Warriner (United States, 1975).
seed: seedling of Independence × Siren (floribunda, Kordes 1953)
pollen: Seedling



PARTY GIRL ®
Yellow blend Miniature.
Registration name: Party Girl ®
Bred by F. Harmon Saville (United States, before 1979).
Miniature.  
Parent Rise 'n' Shine × Sheri Anne

RISE 'N' SHINE
Little Darling × Yellow Magic (miniature, Moore 1970)

LITTLE DARLING

United States - Patent No: PP 1,581   VIEW USPTO PATENT
seed: Captain Thomas (Large Flowered Climber, Thomas, 1935)
pollen: Baby Château × Fashion (floribunda, Boerner, 1947)


YELLOW MAGIC
Golden Glow (climber, Brownell, 1937) × Peachy White

GOLDEN GLOW
seed: Glenn Dale
pollen: Mary Wallace × Hybrid Tea

GLENN DALE
Climber, Hybrid Wichurana, Large-Flowered Climber, Rambler.
Rosa wichuraiana Crép. synonym × Isabella Sprunt

it is intersting that the more we dig into the ancestry we see more ramblers climbers. So My guess is that if we work thorugh the family tree upwards I bet we would get the R. Banksiae and R. Fortuniana.

To me no wonder the pictures of the leaves of Mother's Love and Fortuniana are all ovate like Fortuniana.

Is it true that the seed parent of any rose usually makes the look of the plant like what the leaves will look like the health, tendency to be HT or Floribunda the height resitance to diseases and so on.  And the Pollen parent usually makes the flowers the scent the colour of the child rose.  But it is always the strongest gene in the ancestory will take over.

Perhaps it is worth spending time to dig into Futura's family tree.

Wait and see paulh!

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Re: Sucker shoots

Post by paulh on 25th February 2015, 23:02

WOW Alya, what a great job you have on this post, awesome.
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Re: Sucker shoots

Post by paulh on 25th February 2015, 23:04

In regards to waiting and see, I have read where people recon the suckers suck the life out of the plant and, can kill it. is this so?
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Re: Sucker shoots

Post by Alya on 26th February 2015, 01:01

paulh wrote:WOW Alya, what a great job you have on this post, awesome.

It is love of roses paulh.

You are the one who is most interested in this one. You could have easily cut the "sucker" and done with it. Your curiosity has got us a point to talk about. It is Rose Talk Australia!

I wish we all put the pictures of the leaves and some general features of the roses and especially the climbers and rambler and species in here. We then would be able to "near guess" the parentage of the rose and its suckers when we look at it. It is my dream to be able to do this although I have a very long way to go.

This would help the enthusiasts like us to help succeed with new breeds

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Re: Sucker shoots

Post by The Lazy Rosarian on 28th February 2015, 00:05

Paul, I got your message. I have been looking at the photos. In the first one, where the unknown shoot is growing from, what was or did grow from the cut off branch. ? That is my starting point. You would have to be VERY unlucky to have a bud from the rootstock so close to the union which has shot.

More bits to come.
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Re: Sucker shoots

Post by paulh on 28th February 2015, 00:26

The Lazy Rosarian wrote:Paul, I got your message. I have been looking at the photos. In the first one, where the unknown shoot is growing from, what was or did grow from the cut off branch. ? That is my starting point. You would have to be VERY unlucky to have a bud from the rootstock so close to the union which has shot.

More bits to come.

Thanks David, I'm not quite sure what you mean, I will get right up close tomorrow and take another photo, Ta

Are these better photos David

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Last edited by paulh on 28th February 2015, 23:47; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Sucker shoots

Post by The Lazy Rosarian on 28th February 2015, 06:55

When the rootstock was de-eyed there "might" have been and eye just below the bud union(the bud eye which was placed on the rootstock) and some of that eye might have been left there and inturn has shot, maybe.
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Re: Sucker shoots

Post by Ausrose on 28th February 2015, 11:22

David that makes sense.

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Re: Sucker shoots

Post by The Lazy Rosarian on 2nd March 2015, 13:51

Paul, we are back from the "big smoke", met up with Ausrose(Doug) on our way thru.
The new shots are good Paul, in the third shot from what I see, it is the same as the one I mentioned previously, slightly different angle. If you look at the shot there is a cane taken off, brown colour, then a clump of small cut off bits, then our mystery shoot. If you can remember Paul, what came from the brown cut stem ? to the left. Has anything from the suspect area produced a flower ?
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Re: Sucker shoots

Post by paulh on 2nd March 2015, 23:01

The Lazy Rosarian wrote:Paul, we are back from the "big smoke", met up with Ausrose(Doug) on our way thru.
The new shots are good Paul, in the third shot from what I see, it is the same as the one I mentioned previously, slightly different angle. If you look at the shot there is a cane taken off, brown colour, then a clump of small cut off bits, then our mystery shoot. If you can remember Paul, what came from the brown cut stem ? to the left. Has anything from the suspect area produced a flower ?

Thanks David, I trust you had a great time on your journey, I guess you had a good old chin wag with Doug. Anyways, from memory David, that cane did produce the odd flower. The plant was in the ground but always seem to struggle so I put it in a pot temporarily to see if it would do better. So that cane would have been one some canes that seemed to be dieing so they were cut off. It took about 3 months to start to throw up some shoots, it was very slow, I thought it was going to end up in the bin. Now it has got a couple of flowers and is looking a lot better.
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Re: Sucker shoots

Post by The Lazy Rosarian on 14th March 2015, 15:11

What has come from the "possible sucker" Paul ?
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Re: Sucker shoots

Post by paulh on 14th March 2015, 23:21

The Lazy Rosarian wrote:What has come from the "possible sucker" Paul ?

Thanks David, well they are still the same just long shoots
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