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sudden collapse

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sudden collapse

Post by silkyfizz on 19th November 2013, 19:10

Maybe someone can help explain why 2 of my roses, Mr Lincoln and Fragrant Cloud have shown quite sudden signs of collapse. They were both full of vigour, strong new canes, heaps of flowers buds and flowers. Planted last year. First some drooping of the leaves and buds on the tallest canes then leaves dry out. Lower shorter canes seem to be still healthy and strong, so far. They are in a raised bed, rich friable soil, good drainage. They share this bed with several other new roses, none of which are showing any symptoms. I noticed decline coincided with strong winds and the bushes seemed to be buffeted about so I staked them all and tied a tie right round each bush as well. I lost a couple of canes to the wind prior to this. Then we had virtually 3 days straight of soaking rain. I checked today and dug down in that bed to investigate - nice and moist, not saturated, heaps of worms. I tamped down soil around each bush because the soil seemed 'soft'.
Could the movement from the wind cause root damage? If so, what can be done? Will my plants survive?
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Re: sudden collapse

Post by AutumnDamask on 19th November 2013, 20:41

Nothing like some wind to snap off lovely big watershoots. Sad

The bushes will hopefully be ok but you'll have lost those big canes. :/
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Re: sudden collapse

Post by maree on 19th November 2013, 20:47

Gees i'm no expert but it does sound like the roots have got a bit of a shaking , when in doubt give it some Seasol i say !!
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Re: sudden collapse

Post by paulh on 19th November 2013, 22:39

Hmm Fragrant cloud, I planted my 2nd one about six weeks ago, and its behaving the same way as the 1st one, like how you describe it silky. Takes off then bang, falls apart, the 1st one just kept getting worse til it just died, this one seems to be going the same way.Headbang 
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Re: sudden collapse

Post by silkyfizz on 19th November 2013, 23:00

Oh Paul, I'm sorry to hear that! Did you manage to track down the cause? Was it wind that knocked them around? It's heartbreaking to see such healthy growth and a mass of flowers and suddenly drooping big time and progressive deterioration. Next to my sick one is another Fragrant Cloud in the peak of health. Go figure. Such a beautiful rose too. Wish I knew for sure what caused the decline. A good dose of Seasol tomorrow and keeping my fingers crossed.
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Re: sudden collapse

Post by paulh on 19th November 2013, 23:15

silky I'm not sure whats happened, I'm at a loss
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Re: sudden collapse

Post by Ausrose on 20th November 2013, 03:38

Sometimes the demise of roses randomly in a bed can be caused by curl grub.

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Re: sudden collapse

Post by maree on 20th November 2013, 08:32

Curl grubs , rotten things , i've dug them up when i've been planting , i always kill em , better do some research on this , sorry to hear about your Fragrant Clouds too Paul, there's got to be a simple explanation .
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Re: sudden collapse

Post by silkyfizz on 20th November 2013, 10:24

Last year when I dug that bed, to a depth of 30-40cm, I collected every curl grub and fed them to the birds. I turned it over several times as I incorporated compost. I probably missed a few but not enough to cause that sort of damage I would think. I still suspect wind turbulence has somehow damaged the roots. The growth on those roses was so rapid and lush, could it be the growth above the ground outstripped the ability of the root system to cope with anchoring the plant in adverse weather? Blowed if I know!
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Re: sudden collapse

Post by neptune on 20th November 2013, 11:39

not sure if wind turbulence maybe the cause.....I live in cyclone alley and my bushes regular end totally on there side...then its a case of staking again......in the snow parts of America, each year , they prune the bushes, push them on their side and buried them for protection....
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Re: sudden collapse

Post by maree on 20th November 2013, 11:50

Is the bed raised and well drained Silky ?
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Re: sudden collapse

Post by dannyboy on 20th November 2013, 15:44

Silky a you sure it's not to much fertiliseing.Sometimes were all to good to our roses and we do more harm then good while other people dont bother with there roses, never pruned, suckers everywhere and there blooming just as well.

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Re: sudden collapse

Post by silkyfizz on 20th November 2013, 19:26

Neptune that is interesting. Ok so wind turbulence is unlikely then, since they should be able to withstand our gusts.
Maree, the bed is raised to the depth of sleepers, used to be my no dig garden many years ago, so the drainage should be excellent. That's why I dug down to check because we had that drenching rain.
Danny the only thing I have given these roses is Searles 5 in 1, compost manure type thing and that was in late September, nothing since then. They were due to be fed about now. I'm lazy in regards to feeding so definitely not fertiliser damage.
Thanks everyone for the suggestions. It's a bit of a mystery.
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Re: sudden collapse

Post by betsyw on 21st November 2013, 07:46

Funny you should raise the subject, esp as regards Fragrant Cloud. My Ice Girl is experiencing the die back and withering you mention, and it did happen around the time of a windstorm. Looks as if it mnight have root damage., I thought. Now I 'm not sure

I took a look at one of the baby FCs, still in its first pot. At some point it had been blown smack over on its side (I didn't even notice). Its roots would been pretty well shaken and stirred, but it had decided that horizontal seemed a good way to grow anyway. Look at the Liberace candelabra stretch on those 45-degree angled canes LOLOL. (And note that the plant has been blown right over, with trunk now actually kneeling on pot lip.)
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So no, I wouldn't blame the wind on your FC's and my Ice Girl's problems. If I didn't know we couldn't possibly have gophers, I would have said we have gophers.
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Re: sudden collapse

Post by maree on 21st November 2013, 09:58

Doesn't seem to be any rhyme or reason to this mystery Silky , maybe its just delayed transplant shock or something , plants do just up and die thats for sure , roses included ,so disappointing when its one you love ..   Betsy what a nice pic , i can see now how you grow your roses , on a nice shady deck , just snip em and in the vase , good idea and the fragrance is right there .....
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Re: sudden collapse

Post by betsyw on 21st November 2013, 17:57

It was early morning, maree, so the sun hadn't hit the pot of FC yet. Nope, haven't worked out how to grow rose in shade yet ;-)))))

The majority of the roses, my "battery chooks" , are out the back. Occasionally I wheel individual ones out to the front when they;'re blooming and I'm partying. Once the guests are gone, or the blooms are finished, back they go to the rear-of-house production line.
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Re: sudden collapse

Post by Dimity Cottage on 21st November 2013, 19:08

Hi Silkyfizz, I am so sorry to hear about your Roses.
Don't know if you remember but a while ago I mentioned that I had a beautiful big Azalea 34yr old, up and die.
A couple of weeks earlier I had used Searles 5 in 1 Compost around & into the soil around it. Well the PH was as far Alkaline on the PH Meter that could be read.
Perhaps that could have been the problem, did you do a PH test of the soil when you noticed the problem. I'm probably barking up the wrong tree, could it be a root fungus these can't all be seen with the naked eye and it could have happened due to the rain.
If you go cutting any stems off remember to clean the secateurs with Metho or better still a Copper Spray or Rose Fungicide and you could even heal the cut with a Tree Paint if you want to try and save it. Make sure you keep those secateurs if you go on to cut into another plant.
I might be crazy but I keep a bottle of Cleaner in a screw top jar and take it with me when ever I Prune or Cut off spent flower heads.  
Happy Gardening  ...
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Re: sudden collapse

Post by silkyfizz on 21st November 2013, 19:22

Lovely photo Betsy. I could just imagine sitting out there unwinding at the end of the day, taking in the wafting fragrance of the roses. Sorry to hear about your Ice Girl though. Hope she recovers. My 2 plants are still looking OK lower down with newer shoots, but the taller canes are definitely shot I think. I'm checking them every day tutting over them. I only just realised that these were planted THIS WINTER after I pruned them in their original pot. They might even have been a bit root bound. So their root system wouldn't have been extensive, despite very rapid growth above ground, and those new feeder roots may have been delicate enough to damage.  Who knows? You're right Maree, it's a mystery, but part of the challenge of growing things I suppose.
Thanks Dianne, just read your post. Yes I do remember you mentioned Searle's 5 in 1 and losing your beautiful azalea. How heartbreaking. I didn't realise it was so alkaline! I used Searles on all the roses in that bed with no ill effects on the others, but it is certainly something to bear in mind. No I didn't check PH, probably should have. Wouldn't you know it, I bought a bag of Searles just today on my way home. I definitely won't be using it on any acid loving plants, so thanks, you've probably saved them. I'll use it sparingly on the roses too. Good reminder about secateurs too. I'll remember to wipe with metho.
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Re: sudden collapse

Post by betsyw on 24th November 2013, 19:07

Just checking in on your ailing roses, silky. Up here, Ice Girl has quite recovered, with new growth coming in fast . We've had a deluge in the Hunter, and whatever was creeping out IG has been flushed out of her root system, I think. I'm beginning to suspect an idle and unnecessary application of iron chelate. (I was feeding the gardenias, and thought maybe Ice Gril would like some yummy iron too. Maybe not.).

Does your Cloud look any better:fc:
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Re: sudden collapse

Post by silkyfizz on 24th November 2013, 19:34

Thanks for asking Betsy. They are holding their own so far. The tallest canes still look sick but I've given them a good dose of Seasol and watching them carefully. You just have to hope for the best. All my other roses are just about jumping out of the ground. Now I've discovered rust has reared its ugly head so I might have to spray with Triforene, even though I'm an avowed non sprayer. affraid 
So much for my high moral ground!
I'm so glad your Ice Girl has come good. It's so easy getting carried away when feeding our plants isn't it? Bit like pruning. You start carefully and in the end it's 'What the heck" and you go beserk. I'm the same when I give my fringe a trim, it just goes from a few strands to chunks everywhere. Not recommended! Lol
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Re: sudden collapse

Post by Ausrose on 24th November 2013, 20:26


 I am beginning to be of the opinion some rosarians  on this forum are killing their rose bushes with kindness.

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Re: sudden collapse

Post by neptune on 24th November 2013, 21:17

Ausrose wrote:
 I am beginning to be of the opinion some rosarians  on this forum are killing their rose bushes with kindness.
 
 
 
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Re: sudden collapse

Post by betsyw on 25th November 2013, 07:42

Yeah, well, some day when Ice Girl's leaves turn yellow from chlorosis, she's going to come to me begging for that iron chelate. Sorry, I'll tell her. see if you can borrow a cup from those charming and agreeable gardenias.

Some roses are divas and ingrates. One minute they refuse to grow unless you give them worm castings made on the moon, and the next they turn up their toes at the merest sip of perfectly good nutrients.
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Re: sudden collapse

Post by silkyfizz on 25th November 2013, 11:41

So true Betsy. Either we are neglectful or accused of cossetting like helicopter parents. Can't win in this rose game, coz the roses always have the upper hand and delight in inflicting frustration, ready to scream 'GOTCHA' when we least expect it. Still we love them....
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Re: sudden collapse

Post by Ausrose on 25th November 2013, 15:04

Over the last twenty odd years I have purchased over 500 roses and in that time lost about 10. From what I can remember the reasons for the demises varied from ants (1), Round Up (1), lack of water in pots (5) to too much fertilizer in pots of miniatures combined with lack of water (3) so you can see on average you shouldn't lose too many roses. At times I think there is a reaction to a problem which is often compounded by the remedial action.

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Re: sudden collapse

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