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3 new babies

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3 new babies

Post by paulh on 29th March 2013, 23:51

I have added to the stable, with what I think are going to be really nice.
Soul Mate[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
Perfect Moment[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
Nahema[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
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Re: 3 new babies

Post by The Lazy Rosarian on 30th March 2013, 05:48

Paul, can you say where you purchased them and if they are on 'Fortuniana' stock.
Soul Mate will not disappoint you, but be prepared for a rose that takes time to reach any decent size IMO. In a pot with all your hard work it should grow and look magnificent.
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Re: 3 new babies

Post by paulh on 30th March 2013, 17:57

thanks roseman. got the soul mate and perfect moment from dawsons the nahema from melvilles
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Re: 3 new babies

Post by Ozeboy on 30th March 2013, 20:44

Has anyone any information how well DR.Huey and Multiflora perform in WA sand? The nursery trade in WA use Fortuniana which suggests it's the understock of choice. Nothing like local knowledge but does anyone have reliable personal information using Multiflora and DR Huey.
There are always people who read a lot or get information from the net and rehash what they have read.

Reason I ask is because I sent some Alister Clark roses over there on Multiflora and received glowing reports on how well the plants performed. Suppose they are still alive, haven't heard.

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Re: 3 new babies

Post by RosyTeesh on 30th March 2013, 22:26

Perfect Moment is a beautiful rose, although no scent it makes up for in vigorous growth and colourful flowers. Also the flowers last a really long time :-)
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Re: 3 new babies

Post by paulh on 31st March 2013, 02:50

well ozeboyy i have had no success using dr huey here in perth. i ended up ripping them out and replacing with fortuniana
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Re: 3 new babies

Post by The Lazy Rosarian on 31st March 2013, 06:19

@ Paul, any chance of listing the rose nurseries that "produce" roses, not import them from other sources.
@Ozeboy, if you do not mind, what was the the "hoops' that you had to go through to get them there and costs if you do not mind.

I might ask Finbarr if he can explain from his(Swanes) perspective the process they do to get newer varieties over to WA. IE, budded there or here(NSW).
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Re: 3 new babies

Post by Ozeboy on 31st March 2013, 10:58

Quite simple really, go to or phone your local quarrentine officer and ask for the current requirements for sending roses to WA.
Ask are the borders open at present for sending roses to address........WA etc as it varies from place to place. Then if border open clean all soil from the roots (Gurney) and pull off all leaves. Take the plants back and if clean enough they will treat the plants and issue you with a certificate costing $32.50 The plants are packaged and the certificate is attached to the outside of the carton in an envelope. Mark clearly Quarrentine certificate. Keep your copy of the certificate if needed.

I live 1 1/2 hours travelling time there and 1 1/2 hours back through heavy traffic from their office so the whole operation takes around half a day minimum to complete.

Total cost Certificate $32.50
Fuel $20.00
Wages 1/2 Day $240.00 Based on average wage of $100K year.
Total cost $292.50.

As you can see it's wages and the frustration of achieving the result and not the certificate. That's why I suggest sending one lot to a central point in WA rather than pay for several certificates.
David hope this answers your question.

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Re: 3 new babies

Post by paulh on 31st March 2013, 23:00

roseman wrote:@ Paul, any chance of listing the rose nurseries that "produce" roses, not import them from other sources.
@Ozeboy, if you do not mind, what was the the "hoops' that you had to go through to get them there and costs if you do not mind.

I might ask Finbarr if he can explain from his(Swanes) perspective the process they do to get newer varieties over to WA. IE, budded there or here(NSW).

Yes roseman... nurseries I know that do there own...
Roworths
Swiss Roses
Landsdale Roses
Melville's Roses
I have also found 2 rose nurseries here in Perth, how would you say,they are not commercial growers but have a decent range and all are guaranteed to be on fortuniana
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Re: 3 new babies

Post by Ozeboy on 1st April 2013, 05:08

paulh, I notice your new roses are in potting mix. How long do you leave them in pots before you put them out in WA sandy soil?
Some of the best growers here bring in all the special soils, manures and composted material mix for their garden beds. Is it safe to asume most gardeners do the same even in WA.
My soil here is very light, could be classified as sandy yet my mother understock plants grow equally well, Dr. Huey, Multiflora and Fortuniana. I asume ownroot roses fail badly yet I have a friend over there who grows all roses from ownroot claiming best results grown that way. The above mentioned understocks are only roses and should fail badly if not on Fortuniana according to all the guff about Fortuniana being the only rose that will grow in WA soils.
A large grower here uses Dr. Huey believing it to be the best. No one on the Forum likes DH because it suckers badly and I find roses on it break down in about 12 years due to what I believe is due to incompatability. They just become less vigorous and replanting in virgin soil fails to bring them back to full health.
As previously mentioned my friend is extremely happy with the roses I sent grafted on Multiflora.
I'm having trouble finding why Fortuniana is used exclusively and could believe it's an industry ploy to keep out growers in other states. Since the borders have been closed except for treated plants we might see less guff about Fortuniana being the only rose that will grow there.
We need some scientific evidence like a test by an indipendant (CSIRO)
I'm not convinced after hearing great results from other roses like all ownroot and Multiflora doing so well there.

I would prefer to see some evidence relating to compatability of HT's on the three most common used understocks.

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Re: 3 new babies

Post by The Lazy Rosarian on 1st April 2013, 05:56

A couple of thoughts Bruce,
What part of W.A. does your friend live in,
What would their soil type be,
As for the CSIRO, being a government entity, I would say it has no money and most probably no chance of a grant to do a study unless one of the people there is interested in roses.
As for "Multiflora", is it not the "universal" understock.

The reason I asked Paul for the nurseries was for that so they "might" be able to explain the use of it "Fortuniana" to me via emails.
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Re: 3 new babies

Post by Ozeboy on 1st April 2013, 17:07

David, I see so much Bul#*^#t happening in the nursery business I don't believe a great deal of what is going on.
To answer your questions my friend lives about 10K down the coast from Perth. Sandy and can be difficult to dig.
The CSIRO did a really good comparison regarding T budding verses chip budding proving chip is better than T budding. They may be broke now but would like to see an indipendant evaluation re Fortuniana .
I totally agree 'Multiflora' is not the a universal understock. Any rose that grows roots well from cuttings can be used but compatability is one of the most important requirements. Compatability differs with the Sion grafted on it. For example Cecile Brunner lasts almost forever on Multiflora but most HT's seem to have a 12 year life on it.
Perhaps the nurseries using it in WA are trying to keep a flood of roses
coming in from other states, who knows other than it is in their interest to keep the Fortuniana story going. A local supermarket here is selling HT's in 6" pots for $5.99ea so I can see that as a reason to rev up the Fortuniana story. Why do growers in SA seem to grow Multiflora for understocks with good results when it is so close. Perhaps there is a great deal of difference in the soils.

I don't think it would matter which understock was used as houses in suberbia Perth would have improved soils in their gardens. Just look at paulh's pots full of bagged composted soil. Nothing like the broad acres rose growers are propagating in. Is Fortuniana for the growers or for the Perth gardens? Sounds like a lot of smoke and mirrors in the industry over there. I wouldn't ask paul for the list of nurseries as this has been done before. I corresponded with a big rose grower over there for a few years.

Please send an urgent message to the Tea ladies and others growing ownroot roses in WA to refrain from this practice as their plants are doomed to failure. What a joke.

Why do so many gardeners like the Tea Ladies and numerous others get such good results growing ownroot roses when Fortuniana is advertised as the only rose that grows well over there? Why are my roses grafted on Multiflora growing so well over there?

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Re: 3 new babies

Post by lildeb on 1st April 2013, 19:44

Obviously somebody forgot to tell the roses Ozeboy.
roflmao
Perhaps someone ought to go over and lay down the rules for all roses to grow (or fail) by, ensuring continued demands for Fortuniana!
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Re: 3 new babies

Post by Carole on 1st April 2013, 21:10

Great to see you back Deb cheers
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Re: 3 new babies

Post by Ozeboy on 1st April 2013, 21:53

Lildeb, I think you are right. When someone takes a rose from SA via a back road to WA it should die when told you have now crossed into WA. paulh roses wouldn't know where they were except for the rise in humidity. I think that potting mix formulation is used by most companies right across Aus.

Another furfie is the sign on a big rose stating it is only two years old.
The understock is as thick as my wrist with a root structure that would fill a 12" pot. I get 7 foot canes on Altissimo in 3 months using older rootstocks like this. One can assume they state the age of a rose from the time it is grafted (Budded) and not the age of the understock.

I've had a great Easter Weekend with family' lets hope I havent crushed your enthusiasm for rose growing with my critisims.
If some of the comments on this topict has given you something to think about then it has been well worth the effort. I try to think outside the square which no doubt rubs some people up the wrong way.

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Re: 3 new babies

Post by paulh on 2nd April 2013, 00:04

Thanks Ozeboy for your input, Firstly If I buy a rose to go in the ground, it goes in as soon as possible, if purchased to go in a pot, as soon as I pick up an appropriate sized pot I'll transplant it.

Now, in regards to fortuniana and soils.... I can tell you from my experience, living right on the coast that roses do not do well, they'll grow but will not thrive. I have friends who have who live close to me who have planted straight into their soil, unsatisfactory results.
Many many years ago when fortuniana was found growing in Perth a long the Swan River, it was taken up by growers because their rootstock was so vigorous and survived in all conditions from the far south of Perth to the far north.

It is my understanding that fortuniana resists nematodes, it withstands our extreme heat and our extreme windy hot weather and handles the lack of water better than others. As I understand it fortuniana root system is much like a pine tree and has a tap root that some have have to be 2m long. This would be one of the reasons it does well here. Most plants that have a good tap root does well in sandy soils.

I have read reports from America where parts of the usa have the same climate as Perth, find that fortuniana works well for them.

I can tell you with all my roses planted in the ground, receiving the same care attention, only those on fortuniana have kept up the pace. Replacing those on non fortuniana, has proven to be the best thing, while the others stayed stunted and always looked sickly, the new ones have taken off and have shown great signs already.

Anyways these are my thoughts, I do express that I am a novice but have gained a lot of knowledge from this forum, books and especially the web sunny
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Re: 3 new babies

Post by Ozeboy on 2nd April 2013, 06:24

Paulh, I have also read a lot regarding the virtues of Fortuniana in the States and claims it resists bad nemotodes very well. It's roots have been found to be 25' long which would suggest it's ideal for sandy soils where moisture is very limited. I respect your local knowledge despite being a beginner. What would I know looking at the situation from NSW. We do get a lot of plants failing to thrive here on Dr Huey and Multiflora attributed to poor care, less than perfect budding etc. I can't blame a lot of failures on incorrect choice of understocks.

My friend over in WA is one of the most knowledgeable rose growers in the country and cares for some very fragile almost lost roses and propagates all on their own roots claiming how wonderful they grow.
Other propagators like the famous Tea Ladies who's book is quite famous all over amoungst rose people also claim great success growing ownroot roses. These are passionate people concerning roses with years of knowledge and in some cases 2nd and 3rd generation rose people. Why do these people with large gardens get such good results planting in WA soils? Would appear their roses grow well and survive in the same soil you find find only suitable for the Fortuniana roses.
As mentioned my soil is suitable for growing Waratahs but all the common used roses for understocks do well here.
Most soils found throughout Australia need additives to get the best results, some rose growers totally replace all the soil. Others start composting and mulching at a great rate to change the soil in their suburban yards. This could be the reason people over there have good success with ownroot roses.

I'm not a beginner but still learning after grafting roses for the past 30 odd years. I grow a great variety of roses on all types of understocks including some specially bred for that purpose. I've grown roses in beach sand next to the pacific ocean with good results
I respect the commercial growers in your state as very knowledgeable people growing for local condittions.

I wouldn't be human if I didn't question why roses grow so well on there own roots in WA.

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Re: 3 new babies

Post by silkyfizz on 2nd April 2013, 11:39

Ozeboy, that book by the Tea Ladies sounds fascinating. Can you tell me the name of the book. Are the authors "Tea Ladies"? I'd like to track down a copy.
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Re: 3 new babies

Post by The Lazy Rosarian on 2nd April 2013, 12:09

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There you are Silky
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Re: 3 new babies

Post by Carole on 2nd April 2013, 12:39

It is a good book Silky , I got it for David a few years ago when it first came out.
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Re: 3 new babies

Post by silkyfizz on 2nd April 2013, 13:08

Thank you Roseman

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Re: 3 new babies

Post by Ozeboy on 2nd April 2013, 16:18

Silky, David has come to the rescue with the Tea Lady book information. Do buy it for this group of roses are very suitable for the warmer parts of Australia and are very healthy.
I particularly like 'Mrs B R Cant', 'G Nabbonand' (Jean Ducher), 'Peace 1902',' Comtesse de Labarthe' and the wonderfully fragrant 'Devonensis'. It will also be a plesant change seeing your posts as you experience this wonderful group of roses. They grow so well in WA and tolerate the warm humid condittions in Qld very well.
You will see 'Mademoiselle de Sombreuil' listed which was bred after the French Revolution and this rose is named after her. She tried desperately to have her father released but unfortunatly he went to the Guillotine despite all her efforts. There are two roses supposed to be the correct one and I grow them both.
Go for it Silky you won't be sorry.

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Re: 3 new babies

Post by silkyfizz on 2nd April 2013, 21:22

Thanks Ozeboy, I will try and get it. You mention that Tea roses grow well in the warmer parts of Australia, but I'm in Melbourne, how do they go down here? I'm looking up the ones you mention too.
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Re: 3 new babies

Post by Carole on 2nd April 2013, 23:34

Not sure but I thought they grew well in Tasmania. as I said I am not sure.
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Re: 3 new babies

Post by Ozeboy on 3rd April 2013, 09:58

They grow in Tasmania but really suit the dry parts of WA and humid Queensland. We have some good growers in Qld who are very active on this forum when time permits. Balinbear has a fantastic garden which has to be seen to be believed. Look back amongst the older posts for Gary's pictures.

I have sent a number of Tea's to Melbourne and heard back how well 'Mrs. B R Cant' has grown. Be aware these are larger roses that don't like being pruned as they are ever green and don't go dormant in winter like the HT's you have experience with. Careful slow pruning a cane at a time to keep them under control.
Do dead head if not breeding to encourage blooming. Some of the best flushes are seen in winter when the HT's are just leafless sticks.

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Re: 3 new babies

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