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Black Caviar Rose

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Re: Black Caviar Rose

Post by Ozeboy on 14th February 2013, 04:44

Please Google Tanya Verstack and up will come most of her achievements during and after being crowned a Beauty Queen.
Without a doubt she was the most perfectly sculptured young woman I have ever seen. Yes! I'm a bit of an expert in this area having sketched them, photographed them and chased them with varying amounts of success. She had perfect facial features though, the body, Elle, wins in this regard.

Here's an Australian bred rose long forgotten we should know mostly everything about and rose gardeners are not buying it. I'm amazed why all these possibly over rated new roses sell via a glossy picture.
The rose will never look as good as the picture and live up to it's marketing blurb. Oh, I forgot a catchy name is very important.
Take Iceberg for example, would it have sold with a name like
Rosaheteromorphia. Please get off the seat in front of your computer and visit some garden displays from March to May when all the dreaded fungus arrives, that's the best time to select bareroot roses for winter purchase. Take DA for example, he gets five stars for marketing and two stars for roses. Note the new releases are recycled genes from previous roses we have found not really satisfactory in Australian.
condittions.

It's refreshing to see '100 Not Out' in Swanes list together with some healthy imports. I bought 'Tournament of Roses' last year and found it a very good performer. This season I bought 'Home Run' which was Rose of the Year with very healthy genes in it's pedigree. Both very healthy, so roses may still be the most popular plant again despite losing ground to trouble and maintainence free type plants.

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Re: Black Caviar Rose

Post by betsyw on 14th February 2013, 07:42

The Name of the Rose. So important in selling roses, in fact selling all plants. The market is over -saturated and the right name can promote a new rose into early consideration.

The glossy pic is equally important. Realistically, how can you expect a rose to distinguish itself to the public at large(and largely indifferent to rosarian obsessions) if not on first impressions in a catalogue or a swing tag?

Then there's the selling pitch. Every rose you mention, Ozeboy, has little or no fragrance. That includes the new and wonderfully named "100 Not Out", "Home Run". God, do we really need another scentless pink rose? But great names and great promotion might do it.

Still, for many, many,many rose buyers both casual and seasoned, that's a deal breaker. (Before health, even, if you have never heard of bs or pm).

I mention this because, perfume was the major plank of the DA marketing platform when Austen first launched his English Rose brand. Austen started out by selling the romance of roses. He continues to do so, and boy has it worked.

Yes, his branding/marketing is five-star, and the reality is more like 2 1/2 . That's a really instructive message for small breeders I think. If you hope that the market is going to seek you out because of worthiness of being Australian, then I think the facts must tell you otherwise. National pride is for Olympoic moments, not roses.

And I do not buy for one minute that Australian roses are any better suited to "our conditions" than a thousand other roses bred elsewhere. There is nothing unique about drought, heat, or nematodes.

To Tania: Let me ask you, Ozeboy: did people flock to the rose Tania Verstak back in the day when her name was newsworthy? The woman was an uncanny beauty, and a break-out star. But long forgotten internationally, and lost to succeeding generations of Australians. You are clearly an afficiondo, but you can't spell either of her names.

So what is so special about the also-forgotten rose of a forgotten beauty queen that should single it out for attention now? Is there something extraordinary about this rose? Was it a great rose, that we should mourn its disappearance? Why do you find it so amazing that we don't know anything about it?

I think that breeders everywhere, including Oz, should celebrate the cult of the new. Austen is ruthless in culling his own collection to make way for the next release of newly-breds. It's his open door to fresh sales. Frankly, that push for novelty could be your open door, too. Just don't name your fabulous new creation "Eddie Obeid" ;-))


Last edited by betsyw on 14th February 2013, 08:31; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Black Caviar Rose

Post by maree on 14th February 2013, 08:07

Ozeboy , i looked up Tania and Elle roses , i have considered Elle before but alas mild fragrance for them both . To me a rose must have fragrance ,strong fragrance , not mild , not moderate , strong , otherwise i might as well just grow a camellia , thats what make roses stand out from other plants , that they can have a divine fragrance . I am well aware that roses that don't do so well elsewhere , are re marketed somewhere else and given a catchy name , but i'm willing to try it , if it has fragrance and is a colour i like . DA's i tried four and three i hated and one i loved . There you go , found one i loved , it was worth it then to me ......
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Re: Black Caviar Rose

Post by jordan71 on 14th February 2013, 08:16

i dont understand why people bag austin roses so much, okay some are not so healthy, require more work , at the end of the day, plants are a living thing they have to be looked after , just like us , some of us are stronger then others.. so if the austins arent for you ? let people make up their own minds

the end

Smile
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Re: Black Caviar Rose

Post by maree on 14th February 2013, 08:21

Yep, you are right Jordan , everyone to their own , i like hybrid teas , pesky things they are for BS and long upright canes , but i love the flowers and fragrance , there are many , many HT i don't like , lots of people don't like HT's but thats up to them ... I'm definately putting in Pretty Jessica Jordan , probably next year though , i haven't got the bed quite ready yet ....
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Re: Black Caviar Rose

Post by Happy roses on 14th February 2013, 09:29

It's funny you should mention Elle as I was thinking about it. The rose I mean Very Happy But as far as DA's go I have never owned one and was thinking about Jubilee Celebration.
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Re: Black Caviar Rose

Post by silkyfizz on 14th February 2013, 11:38

Enjoying this conversation. Here's my take on it, for what its worth.
The popularity of roses depends a great deal on the dream that most people with a hankering for a nice garden have. Add to the mix embedded memories of childhood, so many sentimental connections. Add to that the power of perfume in the garden. The olfactory sense is our most powerful in eliciting emotions from that subconscious memory bank. Why then should anyone be surprised that by buying a rose, we are also buying a bit of that dream? Then which rose to buy? How do we decide? Yes the aficionados will approach this in a very different way, but for most of us a gorgeous picture and a sumptuous description, on swingtag, catalogue, website, magazine (usually the same), might just do it. How many ordinary mums and dads who lay out their hard-earned have the time, energy or interest in visiting rose growers to check out how these roses perform? How many are interested in where they come from or what their breeding is? Have you ever watched people in a garden or a nursery admiring roses? First drawn by the blooms, then the sniff. Who's to blame them? I do it myself. We can't get too precious about it. Marketing and promotion is a fact of life. Selling roses is not that different to convincing us to buy this hamburger, that car. Sadly, built in obsolescence is part of the deal in our world where things often don't live up to the hype. I'm just thankful there are so many beautiful roses to choose from. I'm learning more all the time and yes Ozeboy, I will be checking performance in March when I visit some growers, but I wouldn't have dreamed of doing that when I started with my roses.
People live in a stressful fast-paced world often in sterile work environments, surrounded by hard edges everywhere you look. Who can blame them for wanting some beauty and tranquility when they get home? Roses, natives, cottage, tropical, veggie....who cares, not me. Growing things is nurturing and life-affirming. We shouldn't get too bogged down in details.


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Re: Black Caviar Rose

Post by Ozeboy on 14th February 2013, 11:39

Thanks guys for all your comments, someone has to kick this forum along when it runs out of steam. I've probably been into roses too long and need refreshing like one gets when it's all new.

I do like betsyw's pix's of the garden in heaven then the garbage bin.
Too familiar for I have dumped so many roses advertised with all the right words and pix to make it a must have.

It's not all gloom and doom for I have some great seedlings this year, some full of fragrance but must wait to find out if a keeper or a dumper.
All that talk has even made me think "Fragrance"

Happy roses I would give 'Heritage' a try, it's still here after dumping about 20 from the same stable. That's if you can't control yourself and must have one from there.

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Re: Black Caviar Rose

Post by Ozeboy on 14th February 2013, 11:57

Well put Silky, suppose $50 for a rose is a cheap talking point and lead to some light entertainment. It won't kill you like cigarettes costing around $20 a packet and cheap by comparrison.

Last March when I went to check the health of HT roses I did find 'Good Samaritan' at Swanes a stand out for health and freshness.

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Re: Black Caviar Rose

Post by Happy roses on 14th February 2013, 13:07

I gave the cigarettes up years ago so I need to have a bad habit and if that is spending it on roses (what's left after bills etc) I think it is worthwhile. At least there is a reward, to sit in a chair outside at the end of the day and admire the beauty while listening to the birds and not thinking of anything. as Silky says we do live in a stressful fast paced world and these are the treats we allow ourselves. But yes Ozeboy have made a lot of mistakes and wasted time making wrong choices, so am trying to do better. Learning is all part of it. With DA's might just try one and see how I like it, will excerise control though Smile
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Re: Black Caviar Rose

Post by The Lazy Rosarian on 14th February 2013, 16:00

Happy, IMO if you are looking at DA's. Look at the one's that were bred around the late eighties to the early nineties
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Re: Black Caviar Rose

Post by maree on 14th February 2013, 19:21

Happy Roses , Jubilee Celebration is one of my favourite roses , free flowering , nice colour , good fragrance , good disease resistance , thats down here in Victoria , can't vouch for it any where else .. Well said Silky !!!! just got a email too from Magic Roses saying he has written up my order for bareroot 2013 and will let me know when they are ready to despatch .....
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Re: Black Caviar Rose

Post by silkyfizz on 14th February 2013, 22:03

Great Maree, now the waiting begins eh? I thought you had just ordered Black Caviar from Silkies. Did you also get the others you mentioned on your list? Fragrant Cloud , Violina, Olde Fragrance, Jubilee Celebration , Nahema?
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Re: Black Caviar Rose

Post by maree on 14th February 2013, 22:29

They don't have Nahema , so will get it and JC from Swanes , all done .. How about you ?
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Re: Black Caviar Rose

Post by silkyfizz on 14th February 2013, 22:42

You're kidding, not even close! So now you can sit back in the shade, relax and enjoy your roses, while the rest of us (OK, me) are still scratching around like rabid chooks. Enjoy!!
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Re: Black Caviar Rose

Post by maree on 14th February 2013, 22:45

Ha Ha lo ! got next years sorted too , did my head in for months i can tell you .....
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Re: Black Caviar Rose

Post by silkyfizz on 14th February 2013, 23:14

You get the award for organisation Maree! But what will you do to fill your days now? Lol
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Re: Black Caviar Rose

Post by maree on 14th February 2013, 23:50

LOL Silky where do i start , not enough room on this page i don't think lol ha ha , apart from the footy starting soon GO CATS !!! , got so much digging to do , new vegie patches , fix up old ones , create a native corner , etc etc , and work four days a week 9 -5.30 ahhh !!! Got a full membership this year for the footy , so will be going to Melbourne and Geelong games this year , not interstate though ....
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Re: Black Caviar Rose

Post by silkyfizz on 15th February 2013, 00:14

These days I just watch the footy on TV. Can't believe first game is on tomorrow night. So soon? It seems you've got your work cut out anyway, no lazing around for you. I used to grow veggies using no dig principles, following Esther Dean's method. It was very effective too. It's those built up beds I'm now turning into rose beds. More economical now to just buy my veggies. Sore back, yep, tell me about it! Lol
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Re: Black Caviar Rose

Post by maree on 15th February 2013, 00:28

I've read about Esther Dean , Diggers have a good page too on it , those old vegie beds will make great new rose beds , woowee , lucky roses !!! I just love growing vegies , think it harks back to my Italian grandparents and a childhood spent living next door to them and spending time in their huge vegie and fruit tree block ...
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Re: Black Caviar Rose

Post by silkyfizz on 15th February 2013, 00:35

Only thing I miss is the smell and taste of your own tomatoes, no substitute for that. And small sweet cucumbers. And delicious little strawberries. Sigh....
Esther Dean, yes I got her book and started way back when it was first released...20 years ago?
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Re: Black Caviar Rose

Post by maree on 15th February 2013, 07:30

She was certainly before her time and No Dig makes so much sense , just the initial cost of setting it up , and bobs your uncle , well we'll see , gotta get it done yet .... Could you put some strawberries in a hanging basket somewhere ?
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Re: Black Caviar Rose

Post by Ozeboy on 15th February 2013, 09:50

Someone mentioned pedigrees didn't matter as no one buying roses would be bothered looking at that. Well if you have the experience of knowing the healthy groups and the unhealthy ones then I for one am very interested. Race horse buyers at the yearling sales spend half their life studying pedigrees. If you were looking for a future top tennis player go and have a look in Steffi and Andre's lot. You wouldn't go to the local gym and pick two body beautifuls.

The heat has gone so I'm out there in the paddock working.
Will leave it up to you David to keep the forum ticking over as I'm off to smell the roses.

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Re: Black Caviar Rose

Post by betsyw on 15th February 2013, 12:07

If I were going to breed roses, then I would be studying pedigrees. As a consumer, I don't give a ratsa$$. I look to proven perfomance to place my bets. If there is consensus across the web community that a rose is fragrant and disease resistant, then I consider closely, and narrow my choices from there.

Considering that out of 10,000 trial seedlings per annum only something like five ever make it to market propagation, I think that rose breeding , like horse breeding, is pretty much a crap shoot. As throroughbred breeders know, selective genetics is not even close to being a guarantee of creating a money-maker. A great pedigree may make you money for your yearling at the Inglis sales (and it may not, if the yearling is not well put together), but next year's crop of actual stakes winners may come from the most mediocre dams and sires.

I am not bored by lineage - I think it's interesting that the ultra-fragrant and beautiful but fragile Secret is a parent of the much tougher, near-perfect 21st century rose Pope John Paul II. Also interesting to know that there's a mini in Love Potion's background.

AND ON THE SUBJECT OF BREEDING:

I cannot help but notice that one trait is coming through in almost every new rose that is claimed to be highly fragrant as well near bullet-proof to fungi: A STRONG CITRUS SCENT!

What is the connection? Is this due to common parentage? Or does the gene for lemon fragrance soemhow travel well with tougher leaves? Is it somehow more amenable to disease resistnce than sweeter scents?
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Re: Black Caviar Rose

Post by maree on 15th February 2013, 12:21

Its all very interesting to look up Help Me Find and exclaim oh , its parent is so and so and try and sound very knowlegable when really your not , (can't even spell it ), to my sisters and mother , and who ever else , but really except for rose breeders it doesn't really matter , cause we're not breeders ,just passionate gardeners , its all about what looks good and smells good to us , the buying public , or me anyway ,don't know what pedigree Black Caviar has , but if it smells good and isn't a BS magnet its a winner for me , maybe i should put a bet on it , win or place when it starts to flower , is that legal on forums ?
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Re: Black Caviar Rose

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