Latest topics
» what do I need to do?
by eileen0 Yesterday at 18:04

» Feeding routines
by carmel 9th October 2017, 10:06

» Two to identify please
by LouiseJB 25th September 2017, 16:02

» rose for sale
by carmel 25th September 2017, 07:46

» Anyone ever heard of this before?
by The Lazy Rosarian 17th September 2017, 16:19

» parole
by Malnewby 14th September 2017, 18:38

» Winter Flowers
by rosebud 11th September 2017, 12:48

» Thornless Bourbon Climbers?
by rosebud 11th September 2017, 12:40


crossing 2 red HT's

View previous topic View next topic Go down

crossing 2 red HT's

Post by The Lazy Rosarian on 20th January 2009, 14:10

Question could 2 perfumed HT's be crossed. They are Camp David and Papa Meilland, My wife Carole thinks that if it was achievable it would come out highly perfumed, a good red with good vase life. Any way she is going to try this cross.
avatar
The Lazy Rosarian

Number of posts : 5146
Age : 64
Location : Mudgee, NSW, Australia
Registration date : 2009-01-11

Back to top Go down

Re: crossing 2 red HT's

Post by Admin on 20th January 2009, 14:43

There are no listed descendants of Camp David on HMF but that doesn't mean it can't be done. David Clark from RE emailed me a while back telling me the other parent of his nice red was Camp David. HMF lists a few descendants of Papa Meiland used both as a pollen parent and a seed parent (mostly pollen parent) so it too can be done. I don't know how perfume is inherited but guess there is a good chance two perfumed rose would produce at least one nice smelling rose Smile Have you got Kardinal to play with too? It might also be worth a shot if your goal was to breed nice cut flowers as its flowers last really well in the vase.


Last edited by TasV on 21st January 2009, 20:49; edited 1 time in total

Admin

Number of posts : 3739
Location : Mudgee
Registration date : 2008-02-08

http://www.rosetalkaustralia.com

Back to top Go down

Re: crossing 2 red HT's

Post by Ozeboy on 20th January 2009, 16:44

Roseman, I have a seedling from a vigorous red HT that does not have fragrance. It's seedling has stacks of fragrance, don't know the pollen parent but its near Mr Lincoln and Mrs BR Cant.

If you want to have a go with Tavs's suggestion I have Kardinal budwood .

Ozeboy

Number of posts : 1670
Location : Glenorie, Sydney NSW
Registration date : 2008-12-28

Back to top Go down

Re: crossing 2 red HT's

Post by The Lazy Rosarian on 21st January 2009, 20:39

Ozeboy, I being slow, you say I have a seedling from a vigorous red HT that does not have fragrance.
It's seedling has stacks of fragrance, don't know the pollen parent but
its near Mr Lincoln and Mrs BR Cant. Did you cross or did the seedling just emerge.
avatar
The Lazy Rosarian

Number of posts : 5146
Age : 64
Location : Mudgee, NSW, Australia
Registration date : 2009-01-11

Back to top Go down

Re: crossing 2 red HT's

Post by Ozeboy on 21st January 2009, 23:33

Roseman, I do not know the pollen parent, only the seed parent. I call it a seedling from Commercial Red as I don't know its name.
Does the name really matter as the seed parent is one of the best HT's in my yard. The seedling will be called something like S- CRHT1 for my records.
As it costs around $2000 to have a plant named and patented , most of mine will just have numbers for my records. Your seedling could be #1. S-CDHT x P-PMHT or what ever system you dream up. The members of the Rose Hybridising group possibly have something better. Tasv has been interested in breeding for some years and might have his system going well.
Also have some seedlings from Iceberg with pollen parent unknown. One is a mauve colour and another is white with a lot more petals than it's mother. There are a lot of others that look just like Iceberg but will grow them on as its to soon to cull them.
I have worked with poultry for years and have a shorthand system to keep track of their breeding.
If you look on HMF some are listed as parentage unknown but for breeding I like to know everything about a plant back a few generations.
There are a few who just cross named plants and don't seem to get into real breeding. This would hold my interest for a short time, I want to do more generations of my own breeding before I would call myself a real rose breeder. There are a lot of sites for rose hybridisers, Tasv collected a lot of this information and has posted it. I personally would like to see the source of the information mentioned in his posts.

Ozeboy

Number of posts : 1670
Location : Glenorie, Sydney NSW
Registration date : 2008-12-28

Back to top Go down

Re: crossing 2 red HT's

Post by Admin on 21st January 2009, 23:38

Most of the information I post can be googled easily should anyone be so inclined. If you'd like to be more specific then I will go back and add references. Mostly though the referencing will, however, be kept to 'The Lab' where the science of the topic is the main issue.

Personally, I do so few crosses that I find it easier to just give the seedlings that I keep 'pet names' and record their parentage in a spread sheet. This year I've done more crosses in one season than I have done yet because I want to get into it more now and think I'll have to find a better system of identifying individuals because many are steps along the track to achieving the goals I want to achieve. This year is also the first year that I will be doing crosses with my own seedlings. Some people use the system where they give the seedlings a three number code, like 50-03-03 which means cross number 50, done in 2003, and the third rose of this batch kept for further work. I like this method but will have to improve my record keeping habits if I'm to adopt this method. Others use abbreviations of the parents names (not sure what Robert Rippetoe, of whom I am thinking, does when he does crosses with his own seedlings that aren't named).

The names only become important if you share the information and others want to do work similar to yours I think. It would help to build up a dosier on fertility or potential to pass on traits so that others following after can either try it as well or write it off as not worth the trouble. If I used a rose such as Rise n Shine in breeding and I consistently got seedlings with washed out colours in the sun and poor disease resistance that were unsuited to Australian environments this would be useful information for hybridisers looking at it some time in the future. I know Robert Rippetoe and Paul Barden list a lot of their development stock on HMF for this reason, to show a more complete flow of genetic information because they intensively line breed or breed within a group. I reckon it can lead to a lot of misunderstanding too. Knowing the roses and recording everything that is. Some pedigrees I just don't understand... for example the climbing miniature 'Nozomi'. It is described as a single pink non-remontant ground cover/miniature. Looking at its lineage though I can't understand how it would have shown up... I can understand it being single but the once flowering thing doesn't make sense to me. In a discussion with David Zlesak on RHA I asked what the patterns of dominance were in roses, that we knew of. He replied saying that among other things remontancy was recessive. The two parents of 'Nozomi' are listed on HMF as both being remontant which would mean they'd have to only have recessive remontancy genes and yet they had a non-repeating offspring???? I'm probably missing something there... but it doesn't make any sense to me (yet). Another example was a plant called 'Evergreen Gene' which on HMF is recorded as being remontant but it is an F1 cross with the species form of gigantea. I was wondering how 'Evergreen Gene' could be remontant because to be so would mean that it would have to have inherited a recessive remonantancy gene from gigantea and this can't be so. I asked the question on RHA and they said it was an error in the listing and that 'Evergreen Gene' is not remonatnt and it should have been fixed up by now scratch So I guess the records are only as good as the person recording them and the accuracy of the person/people providing the identifications of the roses we buy. I have a rose here that is meant to be 'Gold Coin' but it is an orangy yellow that fades to bright red... something 'Gold Coin' is not known to do.... It's all fun though... get too involved in it and it starts to lose it's appeal I reckon.

Admin

Number of posts : 3739
Location : Mudgee
Registration date : 2008-02-08

http://www.rosetalkaustralia.com

Back to top Go down

Re: crossing 2 red HT's

Post by The Lazy Rosarian on 22nd January 2009, 17:09

Tasv, have you heard of a cut flower rose called "First Red" bred by Paul Pekmez (past away too young) from France, I will use that in preference to Kardinal as it is at presently the most used red for florists, unless there is a new one on the market.
avatar
The Lazy Rosarian

Number of posts : 5146
Age : 64
Location : Mudgee, NSW, Australia
Registration date : 2009-01-11

Back to top Go down

Re: crossing 2 red HT's

Post by Admin on 22nd January 2009, 17:49

Hmmmm... if my memory serves me correctly I think I have... in the first year of my hort degree (I stopped after a year... was too much to juggle teaching/babies/external study at the time... might take it up again now... that I have even less time LOL) we visited a cut rose farm in Wagga Wagga... This was very impressive and I love the idea of growing roses for people to give as gifts and also love the idea of breeding glasshouse roses for cut flowers... the best gift in the world I think love Can't remember their name... Itallian sounding name from memory I think.... dunno... was 10 years ago now. Anyhow... they had it there if my memory serves me correctly... very long stemmed and slow to open. Have you got any other greenhouse roses to use for other crosses? I can send you material for 'Twin' and 'Red Intuition' to bud if you would like to try and use them as well.

Admin

Number of posts : 3739
Location : Mudgee
Registration date : 2008-02-08

http://www.rosetalkaustralia.com

Back to top Go down

Re: crossing 2 red HT's

Post by Admin on 5th February 2009, 01:17

David,
A link was posted on the Rose Hybridisers Assoc. forum that I thought you might be interested in. It's about the inheritance of fragrance in HT roses: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Admin

Number of posts : 3739
Location : Mudgee
Registration date : 2008-02-08

http://www.rosetalkaustralia.com

Back to top Go down

Re: crossing 2 red HT's

Post by Admin on 5th February 2009, 01:26

Unfortunately I can't get the whole article though... just the abstract.

Admin

Number of posts : 3739
Location : Mudgee
Registration date : 2008-02-08

http://www.rosetalkaustralia.com

Back to top Go down

Re: crossing 2 red HT's

Post by rosemeadow on 5th February 2009, 23:20

David, you are welcome to any budwood on my cut roses if you want ever.
Also anyone else on Rose Talk. My list is on the Database.

rosemeadow

Number of posts : 902
Age : 54
Location : Exeter, Tasmania
Registration date : 2009-01-11

Back to top Go down

Re: crossing 2 red HT's

Post by Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

View previous topic View next topic Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum