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Rose cuttings in Summer.

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Rose cuttings in Summer.

Post by rosemeadow on 19th January 2009, 01:04

I have been doing cuttings at my friend's big rose garden lately. Usually I do it in Winter but I hope that is to change and I will be doing them all year round. I putting them in water after I cut them, then after a little bit into pots of creek sand. Then I am putting cut off 15 litre water Spring water bottles over the rose cuttings in each pot. Its a bit of a tight fit but it does go. I am doing this because I don't get home till late, and I if I get up late the next day because I was on the computer too late the night before, well I am hoping my cuttings won't have lost much leave moisture by me doing this with the big bottles. I will know tomorrow if it works. My cuttings I potted up today looked hydrated, eventhough I had them in wet sand. Though being put latter under 2 litre bottles may put the moisture back. But I would rather they had the best start from the begining, so they can start preparing to grow almost imediately after being cut.

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Re: Rose cuttings in Summer.

Post by Admin on 19th January 2009, 06:05

This is a proven method of striking semi-hardwood and soft-tip cuttings of roses and is generally very effective. Some of the things that have been shown to improve the strike rate of cuttings taken like this are;

* use a stem that has just finished flowering. I have stopped using rooting hormone on them because it doesn't seem to make much difference for this method. I've had close to 100% success so far this year with and without rotting hormone.
* allow a few leaves to remain on the stem. The reason for this was that in the absence of leaves the cutting will use the stored reserves in the stem to make new roots and by leaving a few leaves on it the cutting can continue to photosynthesise and replace these reserves as well as make new leaves. It seems to produce stronger cuttings.
* covering creates high humidity. This allows you to leave some leaves on the cutting. Leaves lose water by transpiration and the rate of transpiration is determined, in part, by humidity and in a very humid environment transpiration can be reduced or stopped completely. If water stress is removed they can continue with the job of photosynthesising.
* watch for fungus. A light spray with something like Mancozeb can help avoid fungal infections taking over but don't go taking the cover off frequently if you don't have to.
* watch it isn't in direct sun. They will cook ina very short time. I keep mine in my shed under a skylight (translucent sheeting).
* harden them off gradually. You'll find that they will develop root in a very short time. Some of mine have developed roots in as little as 3 weeks. Multiflora rootstocks and multiflora hybrids like Veilchenblau in as little as 10 days. Some have been taking up to 5 weeks. I find that this is the point at which I lose the most cuttings because their roots are still quite delicate and if I don't harden them off properly (remember they've been in nearly 100% humidty out of direct sun and will have grown a whole lot of fresh soft new growth in that time) they wither and die in a day.
* I've been using fishtanks lately so I can fit more in and so far this seems to be working pretty well.

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Re: Rose cuttings in Summer.

Post by rosemeadow on 20th January 2009, 17:58

Thanks for all that TasV. I was just about to ask if you are using cuttings with a dead flower, or in the middle of blooming, just like I am. I wondered after you mentioned about soft tipped cuttings or semi-hardwood cuttings. I will get that spray when I can. I gave up using rooting powder a while back too, too much work and I got success without it.

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Re: Rose cuttings in Summer.

Post by Admin on 20th January 2009, 18:32

I'm talking to someone at the moment to see if there is an alternative to using a store bought fungicide like Mancozeb that is safer for us to handle. So far peroxide seems to be a likely alternative. I'll wait till he replies with the verdict. I figure seeing as peroxide is used to sterilise things it might be worth a shot and as it degrades into water and oxygen it leaves no harmful residues (though apparently peroxide that you buy in the supermarket has another ingredient to make it more stable and have a longer shelf life without refridgeration... don't know what effect this has). Will report back when I know more.

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Re: Rose cuttings in Summer.

Post by rosemeadow on 24th January 2009, 16:48

Okay, at the moment I am just checking them every few days. Found a bit of mould on one so I broke it and the dead bit away. But I surpose I am getting too many to be checking them all. Espeacially the ones that are in the full bottles and I will be leaving until I see the roots at the bottom. So the peroxide or Mancozeb kills mould but doesn't stop the plant growing ?

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Re: Rose cuttings in Summer.

Post by The Lazy Rosarian on 24th January 2009, 22:52

Simon, if you have a good chemist around you see if he can show you in one of his pharmacy bibles what is in copper or sulphur. They are used by organic growers as fungicides. Will add more if required.
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Re: Rose cuttings in Summer.

Post by Ozeboy on 25th January 2009, 15:35

Hello Roseman, I have been living with a pharmacist ( My wife ) for the past nearly 40 years, now retired but we still have the Martindale ( Chemists Bible now out of date).
Looks like Copper Sulphate is the best option compared to Sulphur. Hydrogen Peroxide is not shown to be a fungercide. Copper Sulphate is listed as suitable for horticulture and algae control in water reservoirs. It can be dangerous if concentrated as my wife burnt a hole in her uniform with the concentrate. It should be used diluted to .5 to 1 PPM ( Parts per million )
Its also one of the main ingredients in Benedictine Solution.

There are a lot of hortocultural products that are already mixed or have dilution rates so would start there. I have if my memory serves me correctly used Copper Oxychloride on fruit trees when growing stonefruit.
Fortunately my orchard fruit growing days are long gone and the chemical build up in my system with it

Mushroom

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Re: Rose cuttings in Summer.

Post by The Lazy Rosarian on 25th January 2009, 15:51

Hello, could Denise or yourself look at the many forms of (CU) copper, cupric, oxy , and the other, can't remember them all. Cupric again from memory has a different water mix. Poss or Neg ions. If Simon wants a clean fungicide, I would go with the closest to pure. I am sure Denise will point us to it with your help. I will send(PM) to you later on another subject about wine, one of your other passions.
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Re: Rose cuttings in Summer.

Post by Admin on 25th January 2009, 16:27

It's not just that I want a clean fungicide (I do... but...) see I'm a science teacher (my qualifications are in biology; mainly biochemistry and genetics and little bits of plant and animal physiology and ecology with a minor in inorganic chemistry) and I teach senior chemistry, biology and junior science and so I am in contact with lots and lots of chemicals all the time for more than 15 years and it worries me that the cummulative effect of these chemicals in my system can't be good and if I can minimise what I can then that's more peace-of-mind for me. I taught agriculture for a long time too so was exposed to lots of different chemicals, especially out in Moree when we went out to the cotton fields or even just dipping and drenching the stock.

One interesting thing... when we first moved to Tas we rented a house in a small area called Cuprona. From what I can determine the name comes from the fact that the area has a fairly rich copper content in the soil (Copper King mines are just 2km from the town). We were on bore water and the taps in the laundry and bathroom leaked and there were blue streaks down the wall the colour of Copper oxide or Copper sulfate. There were roses on that property and while we were there I cut them back and cleaned them up and noticed they had very little in the way of fungal problems on the roses which I put down to the copper levels in the bore water.

Peroxide is not a fungicide per sey but is a known disinfectant which is why it was suggested to me. It does kill algae cells without affecting higher plants in my planted aquariums and can be used to surface-disinfect propagating material like seeds without killing it completely when diluted. It's really dramatic in aquariums with black beard algae. I put the peroxide into the aquarium and the black beard algae started bubbling and fizzing and after a day or so had turned a light grey/white... dead as a door-nail.

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Re: Rose cuttings in Summer.

Post by rosemeadow on 26th January 2009, 11:00

What chemicals in Mancozeb do you think may be harmful to people ?

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Re: Rose cuttings in Summer.

Post by Admin on 28th January 2009, 14:00

Hi Karen,

Check out the MSDS for Mancozeb Plus (what I have here): [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

It doesn't identify what this ingredient is that they call 'mancozeb' and the other main ingredients are sulfur. It's not so much that any one ingredient is harmful to people... in normal doses it probably isn't. It's more that I am exposed to more chemicals than most people would be on a daily basis at work, from inorganic compounds to organic solvents, all of which have been classifieds as being safe for children to handle yet they still all have msds we need to have read and be aware of the possible risks... even copper sulfate can be harmfull... you might remember as a kid at school making pretty blue crystals in science class... well we had a case two years ago where a student had a skin reaction to dilute (1M) copper sulfate solution which included moderate skin irritation and itchy eyes. I worry about the cummulative effects over time. I'm clocking up 16 years this July in a lab environment and in that time chemicals which I started working with are now banned (like ammonium and potassium dichromate) and others are being added to the list all the time as new information becomes available. When my first boss first started teaching agriculture they used arsenic based dips for the sheep and cattle and they would jump into the dip tank to push the sheep and cattle along with the dip and they figured it was safe to do so affraid . In my very first science lesson as a kid in year 7 the teacher asked us to hold out our hands and she placed a drop of mercury metal in each of our hands (which we thought was very cool because mercury is... very cool) and now we are not even allowed to open the bottle the mercury is stored in now we know about the effect of heavy metals on the body and their link with cancer. Peroxide comes with its own set of risks too... nothing is completely safe... even oxygen will kill you (LOL)... For me, it's about minimising risks. When I first started teaching they told us that the average life expectancy of a science teacher was 54 (or 56... I can't remember exactly now) years of age... now I know lots of science teachers older than that but they were the stats they gave us at uni. And... back in 1993 when I started teaching I actually got my first job at Inverell High School in NSW when a senior science teacher was put on medical retirement because he had developed cancer in two locations, under each arm, and this was traced back to having spent 20-30 years teaching where his lab was some distance from the prep-room and when he did something like radiation in class (and there are a number of places where you can bring out the radioactive samples kits) he'd take each of the little red metal boxes the radioactive samples were kept in (that were meant to be safe) and put one under each arm to carry them over to his lab so he could carry other equipment in his hands. Now... whether this is true or not I can't say... this is what the doctors came back with in their reports, but it scares me a bit. It's a toxic environment and if I can make it cleaner for my family, myself, and my environment then I will.

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Summer cuttings.

Post by rosemeadow on 29th January 2009, 00:44

Hi Tasv. That poor Science teacher. My partner worked in vinyards for a bit of time and whenever we go past them it effects him some, because of the copper stuff they use. Petrol and other things to do with mechanics and spray painting, now effects him to a degree where it didn't when he was younger.
My 47 cuttings in pots with bottles over the top have had no fugus in any but for a little bit on a dead woody bit at the top of a cutting, and one cutting died but that wasn't because of fungus. The earlier 2 cuttings I experimented with first had no trouble, one is uncovered now and the other still has a bottle over the top. I have still to see how my more recently done cuttings go in the full bottles.
I think you don't need to spray the cuttings with anything.
Every few days I am checking the cuttings that were last left in the group that had no callouses. If I find a cutting in a pot has calloused I move it across to the group that has calloused. I now have 21 in the calloused qroup, 6 in a qroup that I believe are starting to collouse, and 20 that have not calloused. I believe all the calloused ones will develop roots from what I saw happen with the earlier 2 in the same situation.
This is a experiment so I can know what is happening and not impatience. Well maybe a little, but I am learning from this impatience. I also know it doesn't hurt digging up the newly callousing cuttings as long as you are very gentle digging them up and puting them back, as I have seen with the earlier 2 and because I have dug them up in late winter/early Spring to have a look at whats going on under the sand. After I have put them back they have gone on to become own root plants.
These cuttings are of Heritage roses, now I want to experiment on Hybred Teas. I think it does help to have little slits up the side to give more area for the callouses to 'break out' and I think I will deliberately do this on the Hybred Teas. I heard once you bash the end of the stem a bit to cause the silts. If you think about a cutting that is caused in the wild, it would not have a clean cut. I also think I will cut each cutting into two, where I can, to give me a double chance of getting that variety to strike.
I am starting to get excitted and thinking it might be a better striking rate in Summer than in winter, and certainly over a shorter time. Though they might start off as smaller plants as they have to fit under the bottles.


Last edited by rosemeadow on 29th January 2009, 01:07; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Rose cuttings in Summer.

Post by Admin on 29th January 2009, 01:01

Wounding is a more gentle way of doing the same thing. Just use a sharp knife and cut the bottom 5mm of bark off on the end of the cutting on one side. It gives larger area to callous.

The spraying of the cuttings is just incase you see something develop... it can happen quickly and spread right through really fast.

The little dead bit at the top is just the stem dying back to a bud.

How are your cuttings holding up in this heat? Mine are struggling in the heat.

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Re: Rose cuttings in Summer.

Post by rosemeadow on 29th January 2009, 01:16

Hi Tas, I thought you would be off to sleep if you are back at school.
I had lots more shade cloth I was going to build another shade house with but I decied to put it over the top of my present shade house to make it more shaded. Turned out a good idea as its more cooler for me too when I am working over there. I have just got to tie it down properly. I will have to start looking for more shade cloth at the tips. Or buy some as I think I will soon need another shade house. I got a heap more bottles today from the tip, ready for Billndee's cutting and to start taking cuttings from my own place. Also Lynette's place hopefully on Monday, and where ever else I can think of. The way of doing it in full bottles, if it works, is a genius idea ( whoever discovered this idea is a genius I mean ) as I only have to use one bit of water to start with, if they fail I haven't wasted any water on them. Also they take less sand and less space in your shade house.
Yes I will wound them gentlely. It my calloused ones I have some roses I really want for my garden, so I am ticled pink, otherwise I would have had to wait to next winter before striking more cuttings, I am starting to hope that in Summer it gives a higher chance of striking. I surpose its early days yrt. Where do you have you bottles of cuttings ?


Last edited by rosemeadow on 29th January 2009, 01:25; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : corrections.)

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Re: Rose cuttings in Summer.

Post by Admin on 29th January 2009, 21:33

I put them in my shed under a skylight... been getting a bit hot in there lately though... have some inside the house here at the moment too because the little greenhouse is also too hot.

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Re: Rose cuttings in Summer.

Post by rosemeadow on 29th January 2009, 23:51

I built my own shade house and thats why it is rough, but it works. I have cleaned it up since these photos were taken and I have alot more new probagating going on in there now. I have put another layer of shade cloth over the top which makes it so much cooler.
I made the frame with long cross beams of steal found at the tip, the walls were made from steel 9 foot posts bought and bits of rio found athe the tip. Some of the shade cloth was bought, some got from the tip. The trees create alot of shade.
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What a mess it is, will have to have another few shots to show it is tidy and a hub of industry now. There are own root roses among them weeds in the pots on the ground. One end of the shade house was made with a old gazebo. The shade cloth must not be able to blow in and catch the thorny cuttings aor they get pulled out of the sand. Wouldn't matter if they are in bottles though or bottles with bags over the top.

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Re: Rose cuttings in Summer.

Post by Ozeboy on 30th January 2009, 11:53

Roseman, looks like Tasv has the it all covered. The Martindale deals with all things for pharmacutical uses but gives a brief description of other uses.
The medecines are too numerous to list.

Briefly this is the opening paragraph.
Copper is a constituent of all animal tissues, and is essential for the utilisation of iron in the synsynthesis of haemoglobin, though it is present in blood in only minute quantities. The salts of copper act as fungicides and astringents.

I have a beekeeping industrial chemist mate who has come up with the idea of immersing bee equipment in chlorine and it seems to work great but trials are continuing as I write. Some trials have been done with plant cuttings but I don't have details at present regarding strength etc.

Mushroom

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Re: Rose cuttings in Summer.

Post by Ozeboy on 30th January 2009, 11:58

Rosemeadow, well done, that shade house will be ideal, all you need now is a few benches at a comfortable working height and an overhead spray system for misting.

Mushroom

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Re: Rose cuttings in Summer.

Post by Admin on 30th January 2009, 13:27

Ozeboy wrote:Roseman, looks like Tasv has the it all covered. The Martindale deals with all things for pharmacutical uses but gives a brief description of other uses.

David mentioned the other forms of copper and its compounds (cuprous is +1 and cupric is +2 transition state)... which other copper compunds does the Martindale mention and what does it say the other pharmacutical uses of these are?


Last edited by TasV on 30th January 2009, 14:55; edited 3 times in total

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Re: Rose cuttings in Summer.

Post by Admin on 30th January 2009, 13:28

Karen... Tassie schools don't go back for another week yet... I start back next Friday Cool

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Re: Rose cuttings in Summer.

Post by rosemeadow on 30th January 2009, 22:33

Thanks Ozeboy, my misting system is now the bottles. I have a round plastic table to go with the chair and I am quite happy in my getaway place. Will post another shot tomorrow of all my bottles.

Thats good you have a bit longer, TasV.

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Re: Rose cuttings in Summer.

Post by Ozeboy on 30th January 2009, 23:09

Tasv, most MSDS sheets read like its going to kill everyone on the planet.
No company wants to stick their neck out and risk a huge payout. Look what happened to asbestos, now I notice all building products are labelled hazardus. Even cutting up sandstone has a big risk. As I have said before " There is no place to hide".

I gave away orcharding to escape overhead spraying and am not using fungacides or pestercides on the roses. Have returned to water, leaf matter and manures rather than all those bought quick fix things from the supermarkets.

Would be very interested in what you come up with for fungus.

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Re: Rose cuttings in Summer.

Post by rosemeadow on 30th January 2009, 23:44

It is about 10 days since I started puting cutings in the full bottles and I have found a few good calloused cuttings in a bottle I tipped out tonight. Very excitting !


Last edited by rosemeadow on 31st January 2009, 23:02; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Rose cuttings in Summer.

Post by Admin on 31st January 2009, 00:22

Ozeboy wrote:Tasv, most MSDS sheets read like its going to kill everyone on the planet.
No company wants to stick their neck out and risk a huge payout. Look what happened to asbestos, now I notice all building products are labelled hazardus. Even cutting up sandstone has a big risk. As I have said before " There is no place to hide".

I gave away orcharding to escape overhead spraying and am not using fungacides or pestercides on the roses. Have returned to water, leaf matter and manures rather than all those bought quick fix things from the supermarkets.

Would be very interested in what you come up with for fungus.

I totally agree with this Bruce... I don't use fungicides or pesticides for my garden roses either and if they don't like they get moved on (survival of the fittest... last man standing kind of thing). I wish there was an easier way to deal with it like this for propagating... use sterile medium and a quick bleach dip maybe??? The bleach dip works well to kill off algae on the rhizomatous aquatic plants before adding them to your fish tank... so maybe a quick dip in bleach for rose cuttings would also be good. Have you ever used straight perlite for propagating cuttings?

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Re: Rose cuttings in Summer.

Post by The Lazy Rosarian on 1st February 2009, 16:30

Simon, as an after thought, perlite used against vermiculite, or a combination of both. Again from memory vermiculite holds more water, could be wrong.
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