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Bud Union

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Bud Union

Post by Happy roses on 17th November 2011, 21:58

Hi

I have always been told to have the bus union should be above ground, but I have been reading other forums that recommend burying it. I was wondering why this is so? Question
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Happy roses

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Re: Bud Union

Post by Carole on 17th November 2011, 22:21

I dont know. We always have the bud union above ground but I know lots bury it. I think it is so you get roots to grow from the top plant if that makes sense.
So you end up with a plant on its own roots.
Others may explain better.
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Re: Bud Union

Post by Admin on 17th November 2011, 22:28

There are lots of reasons to bury the bud union. There are two reasons I do it:

1. We are smack bang in the middle of the Roaring 40s... it gets so windy here are times it could blow a dog of a leash. Burying the bud union alows it to better anchor itself and reduce the chance of it blowing over. They are too high and have too big a sail area to leave it above the ground down here.

2. As Carole said, it encourages them to grow roots from the top grafted section that will in time take over from the understock. It should be noted, however, that a lot of mdern roses will never do this as they grow so poorly on their own roots that they have virtually lost the ability to even grow roots of their own.

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Re: Bud Union

Post by Carole on 17th November 2011, 22:45

So I guess it depends a lot on your weather conditions. Simon in Tasmania with the severe weather conditions there. Us in the Central Tablelands of NSW where we do have strong winds but not strong enough to break the union. You in Queensland - I dont know where in Queensland or what your conditions are.
So my best thought would be, ask your nieghbours that have roses if they have problems with wind breaking thier roses. They are the people that will give you the best help.
Gary would be the best person if you are on the Sunshine Coast.
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Re: Bud Union

Post by Admin on 17th November 2011, 23:17

The bud union rarely breaks here. It's just that it sits so high that the plant gets pushed over.

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Re: Bud Union

Post by Bonita18 on 17th November 2011, 23:28

I have grown roses in both Brisbane and now outside Toowoomba and the advice has always been told to plant the bud union about 5cms above the soil topped with mulch. This is important if you have water crystals in the soil as when the rains come in the summer you may find your plant will lift up and sometimes even out of the soil. The mulch should be well clear of the bud union to avoid collar rot and so you can see if there is any white scale lurking or any rootstock coming from below the graft. Most Queenslanders prefer multiflora rootstock unless you are on heavy black soil. Many rosarians stake the new watershoots until they firm up as the summer storms may break them off in our climate. Other people say that when the candelabra of flowers is still soft, snap it off to promote bushiness. Hope some of this helps.

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Re: Bud Union

Post by OzRose on 18th November 2011, 02:11

Simon has made the first two points of why I bury below the bud ; although we are not in the Roaring Forties , wind rock can still be a problem especially with a top heavy bush .
This in turn can lead to the aggravating problem of the understock continually suckering. By burying below the bud union the weight of the dirt helps anchor it and if the plant does self root well then it has additional anchor points and feeding roots.

The third reason why I like to plant budded roses deep is sunburn .
I reckon it's the biggest killer of young budded rose bushes that I have ever known.
The sun here can be very fierce in the summer and if the bark on those young branches gets burnt down low where they erupt from the stock or around the bud union itself , then that's it , they are buggered . The top of the bush slowly dies off basically from starvation after it's feed and water supply cells are destroyed . I have found this can happen to a young bush just on one hot day Crying or Very sad
But by burying deep now , I find this is not the problem that it used to be and should the branch get sunburned , there is every chance that it will re shoot from below ground level.
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Re: Bud Union

Post by Dave on 18th November 2011, 06:27

In good soil/subsoil, I've planted some budded, advanced 2 yo roses a foot below the union. It takes a bit longer to establish but your plant gets the best of everything - all the points mentioned above, plus - in my climate - cooler, moister soil in summer with occasional deep soakings when needed.

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Re: Bud Union

Post by The Lazy Rosarian on 18th November 2011, 06:36

Dave as you have gone one step further with your depth, can you comment on the roses that may 'sucker' on own roots once these budded plants start to have their own roots from the bud union, regards David.
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Re: Bud Union

Post by Dave on 18th November 2011, 06:54

They haven't suckered - yet. But I don't see why they would - there's no disturbance way down there.

Only the ones I planted too shallowly years ago have suckers.

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Re: Bud Union

Post by The Lazy Rosarian on 18th November 2011, 07:05

Thanks Dave, it is/was in relation to Margarets warning of some roses suckering on their own roots.
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Re: Bud Union

Post by Dave on 18th November 2011, 07:51

OK I'm with you. I don't grow any that do, but it could be a problem - you would have to keep the graft above ground to avoid self-suckering.

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Re: Bud Union

Post by Admin on 18th November 2011, 07:53

It really depends what the variety is as to whether they will sucker or not. Gallica, Damasks, Rugosa, Spinossisima are exmaples of varieties that will routinely sucker because that's what they do. Most modern roses won't sucker in general unless disturbed. Rpses don't generally suffer from collar rot so you can mulch right up to their trunks so that even roses that have been planted with the bud union above the ground can gradually be burried over time.

There is another reason to bury the bud union as well. It just plain looks better Smile Otherwise they just look like mini standards. Roses are woody herbaceous plants and they naturally replenish themselves by throwing new basal canes as others age to a point where they are no longer productive. In grafted roses many of these new basals come from the bud union. When burried the shoots will make their way up through the soil to form new trunks (adding to the plant's support) and increasing the chances of them also forming extra feeder roots from these new basals. The overall effect is much more natural and aestheically pleasing, to my eye.

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Re: Bud Union

Post by Happy roses on 18th November 2011, 11:00

Thanks everybody, this is very interesting, I'm in Brisbane and it gets pretty windy where I am, not enough to do any damage.
I agree with Simon I think it looks better buried, and also as Ozrose mentioned it does get very hot and humid. Mine are all hybrid teas, so maybe it's something I could try and see how they go, perhaps gradually?
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Re: Bud Union

Post by Bonita18 on 18th November 2011, 14:07

It seems to me that we northerners whose predominant rainfall is in summer which is why the southerners invade us every winter for our glorious sunny days, have different growing conditions. Our newly, emerging canes are subjected to more violent summer weather, flooding, hail and storms that break our plants, than in the south. Yes, sunburn is a problem here so pruning HT plants into vases which serves to let the light into the centre of the bush, is in my opinion advisable in less sunny climates than ours but not necessarily good here.

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Re: Bud Union

Post by Admin on 18th November 2011, 18:42

Not necessarily good here either. If left alone they will find their own form that maximises their light catching potential. The only reason we prune is for our own benefit... not the good of the rose.


Last edited by Simon on 18th November 2011, 21:46; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Bud Union

Post by Balinbear on 18th November 2011, 21:44

I dig a hole and put in some mulch (or sheep poo) and mix with the soil I have taken out then give that a good water and then dig a hole in it and plant the rose.
Sometimes the bud gets burried sometimes not. I think we have lost more shoots from heavy rain than wind. Most of our plants are on own roots so burying for possible roots probably does not apply to us.
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Re: Bud Union

Post by rosemeadow on 19th November 2011, 16:29

We had a large grass/bushfire come along where we lived nearly 10 years ago. We weren't at home at the time but not far away. I lost around 400 younger Hybred Teas and David Austins, only three survived and I believe that must have been because those grafts must have been in the ground. I still have the Gertrude Jekyll that survived, though the two Hybred Teas died latter when I moved them to another property.
Also a little bit latter I lost a climber that I was yet to put a support up for, a big wind broke it below the graft. After that I got the idea from my two friends who have Open Gardens, of planting the graft below the ground. Also I read they were doing it in America alot. I was keen to get roses to grow there own roots if they would. So they could survive a fire as I now live opposite a National Park, it was just a State forest when I came here.
I too reckon roses will survive drought with their graft under the ground, I can plant them really deep because my soil is really good. So there roots are deeper and will have the moisture longer. I also think having the graft under the ground protects the rose plant from wildlife, locusts, being walked on or mowed over by accident. Many a time I have been thankful a rose has had its graft under the ground or on its own roots, knowing it will come back even though I have hurt it.

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Re: Bud Union

Post by LiliB on 10th December 2011, 10:44

The issues raised in this discussion are very interesting. I've been pondering the loss of vigour in many of my roses over time and wondered why this might be so.

We've had endless problems with suckering and my ' labour ' swears he never digs near the roots. Yet we have strong winds, extremely strong in spring from the south and very strong from the north in the summer. The sunburn aspect is also interesting and may help to explain the loss of vigour better than anything else I have come across to date.

I will certainly run some experiments burying the bud union. After all, what have I got to lose? I'm looking at about half a dozen poor performers at the moment, and handing out 'death sentences' so I'll have an opportunity soon. Laughing Laughing Laughing
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Re: Bud Union

Post by Guest on 10th December 2011, 18:58

It comes back to : if it's been budded because it would sucker on its own roots, it will sucker if you plant it with the bud union below the soil or mulch surface.

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Re: Bud Union

Post by Happy roses on 11th December 2011, 20:22

I was told the other day that here in Brisbane it is better to keep the bud union above ground because of the amount of rain we have and to prevent collar rot.
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Re: Bud Union

Post by Admin on 11th December 2011, 22:02

Roses are not susceptible to collar rot like other plants are. This is why you can mulch them right up to their stems. This goes back to how roses grow naturally. Roses are woody herbaceous plants which regenerate themselves from shoots that push up from under the ground from a crown or roots. They are called basal shoots. If the rose was to be susceptible to collar rot then the basal would rot away too. So, this advice is poor advice probably borne from somones experiences with other groups of plants and applying it in a blanket-like manner across all plants. When we talk about lots of rain, the NW and west coast of Tassie knows a thing or two about this. The west coast gets over 3m a year in some places and here I get a metre of rain a year. Most of my rain falls in the winter and I routinely bury my grafts. The soil is perpetually wet from the end of autumn right through to midway through spring. I've never once seen a case of collar rot in my roses. I mulch right up to the stem... so don't believe a word of it.

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Re: Bud Union

Post by Balinbear on 12th December 2011, 09:21

We also mulch right up to the stem without any problems. In fact a couple of small roses have "disappeared" under our mulch and had to be refound. I'm not recomending that anyone do this however.
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Re: Bud Union

Post by The Lazy Rosarian on 12th December 2011, 09:24

Margaret, if the bud union was planted below on a grafted plant would the "suckering" be reduced as the plant has the rootstock still growing/available to the plant, scratch
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Re: Bud Union

Post by tambralyngar on 12th December 2011, 16:09

Thanks Simon, I had been told the same info as happy roses from a couple of people, and also to not get anything to close to the stems because of collar rot. Glad to here that planting the bud union is okay & mulching right up to the stem will not hurt my roses. Thanks Guys Smile
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Re: Bud Union

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