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Freycinet

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Freycinet

Post by Meryl on 2nd November 2011, 11:32

I think it was Larry who, back in early spring, gave a tentative thumbs down to the newish Rugosa, Freycinet, bred, in Tasmania presumably, by Lilia Weatherly. Like him, I bought it last winter, loving the thought of a fragrant purple Roseraie de l'Hay with hips into the bargain and thinking it therefore perfect for a garden with room for only one Rugosa.

I've been loath to accept his judgement but finally I have to agree. Freycinet may be beautiful in a cold climate like Tasmania, but in Sydney it's: not purple; has a messy ragged flower; and blows and drops petals really quickly. Even the scent isn't much joy to my nose.

So which Rugosa should be my one and only??

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Re: Freycinet

Post by Admin on 2nd November 2011, 13:00

A new one in my garden this year is a light pink one called 'Anne Hall'. It's also an Australian-bred rose that has a nice double form, similar to 'Mrs Doreen Pike' (which is a rugosa bred by DA and available from Misty Downs). I like 'Freycinet' so far but then I like all the rugosa. You might like 'Belle Poitevine'. 'Schneezwerg' also has a beautiful flower.

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Re: Freycinet

Post by larryp on 2nd November 2011, 17:09

Yes 'twas I Meryl who gave Freycinet the thumbs down. If the blooms are going to be so fleeting during our coldish Spring I hate to think how quickly they'll blow when the weather really warms up. You're right I think it might do better in a more frigid climate - say Antarctica.
I'm thinking of giving Freycinet my first AARS Award for the year - as in giving it the AARS.

Larry
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Re: Freycinet

Post by The Lazy Rosarian on 2nd November 2011, 19:00

Larry, do you know my postal address lol!
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Re: Freycinet

Post by larryp on 3rd November 2011, 09:12

You wouldn't want it Roseman. IMNSHO Freycinet is a total dog. I bet if I threw a bone at it it would chow down like a ravenous hound. I'm thinking of teaching it to catch frisbees.

Larry
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Re: Freycinet

Post by Admin on 5th November 2011, 14:13

In the interest of balance and fairness... here's 'Freycinet' here today:

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Re: Freycinet

Post by larryp on 5th November 2011, 16:54

Hi Simon

I’m often accused of being unfair and I’m definitely unbalanced but I think I am right in saying that Freycinet is perhaps a cold climate rose. Like most of Lilia Weatherly’s Tassie “creations” their canine tendencies tend to emerge once they cross Bass Strait. In Sydney “Blushing Pink Iceberg” is basically plain old vanilla Iceberg.
Brilliant Pink Iceberg and Burgundy Iceberg are prone to all sorts of gyrations across the colour spectrum. I’m a little disappointed that she hasn’t come up with “Liquorice All Sorts Iceberg” but I live in hope.

Pardon the digression but I thought I’d take one of my fave hobby horses out for a little trot. Back to Freycinet. Here in Sydney the flowers last for barely a day, what petals don’t drop, turn a muddy brown and cling on like dried boogers on a toddlers nose. At the end of this I attach a pic of Freycinet this arvo

Be that as it may – as in all things rose related – it’s all a matter of taste and opinion. I have little taste and my opinions can be more than a little eccentric so I shall bow to your influence and leave Freycinet in the ground to see whether he can match your estimation of his qualities.

Must rush as Freycinet has been howling for an hour for his kibble.

Larry

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Re: Freycinet

Post by Carole on 5th November 2011, 17:09

Larry, have you thought of tossing it a bone Hmmmm Do NOT feed the Trol
Maybe I should Shut Up!!!
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Re: Freycinet

Post by AutumnDamask on 5th November 2011, 17:27

Hmmmm. That's all very interesting info, Larry.
I had no idea the different Icebergs behaved like that.

Idea

I wonder.... since my Blushing Pink Iceberg looks like this:
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then maybe I can get away with Freycinet?? Hmmmm
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Re: Freycinet

Post by larryp on 5th November 2011, 19:37

Well jeez - yep I guess you could.I guess I'm not as infallible as I thought I was. Just shows you should never be adamant about anything connected with roses. I consider myself justly admonished. Hide
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Re: Freycinet

Post by AutumnDamask on 5th November 2011, 19:54

lol!

(PS. I suppose I should have admitted earlier that I am a "dog person" rather than a "cat person".... Spinner )
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Re: Freycinet

Post by The Lazy Rosarian on 5th November 2011, 20:13

Larry and Wendy, the 2 differences in plants "must" be climate related.
Larry keep 'Freycinet', get rid of the 'Icebergs' Spinner .
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Re: Freycinet

Post by Admin on 5th November 2011, 20:27

Now that we have adequately established that 'Freycinet' is a cool climate rose that may well perform poorly in Sydney, the original question asked whether there might be a suitable alternative...

Here's a few things to maybe consider:

1. 'Fimbriata' is a rugosa hybrid made by crossing a rugosa with a Noisette/Tea. It is reasonable to expect, therefore, that it may do considerably better in Sydney than other rugosa.

2. The Grootendorst rugosa were made by crossing in a polyantha rose. They come in pinks, white, and red and they too may have a wider tolerance to heat than say 'Freycinet' which is an open pollinated 'Scabrosa' seedling and 'Scabrosa' is considered to be a variant of Rosa rugosa rubra making it essentially a species of a cold climate rose.

3. 'Schneezwerg' may do better up there because its parentage is often given as Rosa rugosa x R. bracteata or a Polyantha though Skinner also thinks it may be a species hybrid with R. beggeriana. Either way it may have a wider temperature tolerance. It does well down here... but then so do all rugosa.

4. 'Anne Hall' is an Australian bred rugosa discovered on the mainland. It has thinner wavy leaves than most rugosa with a less of a shine than most. This is mine about to flower yesterday:

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Being mainland bred it may well be more tolerant of Sydney's more Tea-like climate. Who knows what the parent's were? Even if its Mum was a rugosa, rugosa roses show a distinct preference for cross-pollen so it is almost certainly not a self. It could be crossed with anything.

5. 'Martin Frobisher's Mum was 'Schneezwerg'. See above why it might be better up there.

6. If you wait a few years I can send you up some of my 'Safrano' x rugosa 'alba' seedlings that I hope will result from the crosses I did the other day... good chance they will be terrible as I have a pot full of rugosa 'alba' x 'Monsieur Tillier' seedlings that will be thrown out due to a failure to thrive, however, rugosa 'alba' x 'Papageno' are coming along nicely. Rugosa 'alba' x 'Edith Holden' also were all throw-outs.

7. 'Ann Endt' is a purple rugosa/foliolosa hybrid. It may well have better heat tolerance and floral longevity in Sydney. I have sent my own 'Ann Endt' seedlings to Goulbourn where they seem to be doing very well. This is the foliage on one of my 'Ann Endt' seedlings: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]



Last edited by Simon on 6th November 2011, 11:22; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Freycinet

Post by Ozrosarian on 6th November 2011, 10:21

In warm Perth Sarah van Fleet is exquisite. I saw many and they love that climate. In Melbourne I do have Rugosa Alba (white flowered rugosa) and it's a charmer both in sun, wind or rain. It's one of the few bees love too, which is always a wonderful sight in a garden. Perhaps going back to basics in difficult climate helps? If you love rugosas, don't get a hybrid, but the original Rosa rugosa — its red-magenta or white sport?
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Re: Freycinet

Post by larryp on 8th November 2011, 11:12

I'd agree with Sarah van Fleet. Best of my rugosas so far this year Rugspin also good. Delicata and Belle Poitivene fine in warm climates. In my opinion Rosarie De L'Hay another cold/mild climate rose. Lovely in early spring here but as the weather warms flowers burn quickly and don't drop cleanly making for a very untidy bush

Larry
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Re: Freycinet

Post by Meryl on 8th November 2011, 12:44

I was wondering about Rugspin. Would love a purplish flower and hips and Rugspin was highly recommended by grower and breeder Lozza, on a forum long ago and far away. If you happen to remember, Larry, could you report on Rugspin's hip performance later in the year, please?

Have checked out others' suggestions and found some beautiful roses, thank you. I'm a bit nervous about hybrids in Sydney because the ones Parramatta Park had seemed to be prone to black spot. And looking for other than pink because the Sydney garden has rather a glut of it.

Absolutely agree about the beauty of Rugosa alba but I already have it in Katoomba and can't bear to waste an opportunity to have something new.

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Re: Freycinet

Post by larryp on 8th November 2011, 17:12

Hi Meryl
Rugspin a better hip generator than choc coated ice cream. A first season plant it's covered - counted up to 45 before I got bored. Sample pic below. Also pic of bloom - a little deceiving - it's a little more red than it photos but definite purplish overtones.
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Re: Freycinet

Post by Admin on 8th November 2011, 18:38

The blackspot of the hybrids (with moderns) is a real issue. I've raised 1000's of hybrid rugosa seedlings (with moderns) and have not kept a single one... no wait..I tell a lie... I've got two that look really good that are rugosa 'Alba' x 'Golden Emblem' but I suspect they are selfs instead of hybrids as the leaves show no modern effects at all and so far they have shown no disease (another indication they might be selfs). If they throw double flowers I'll know they are hybrids but I doubt very much they are. The trouble wit rugosa seedlings is they have an extended juvenile stage and can take 3-4 years to make their first flower before settling into a pattern of repeating.

This year, I was trying for a striped hybrid rugosa and put 'Papageno' into the mix and the two seedling I've kept are doing quite well so far but they have barely any trace of rugose leaf texture that makes rugosa so beautiful. I'm hoping it will have at least some fertility and stripes so I can put it back to something like 'Anne Hall' which seems to have the goods so far. It would great of a few more people tried this one in warmer regions to see how it turns out. I'll post photos of its flowers as soon as they open... taking its time to mature its buds. I think put back to 'Ann Endt' it could turn up purple striped rugosa too.

In the quest for purple rugosa, I'm wondering which way to go... lots more research is needed to improve my chances... I need a good diploid purple Hmmmm

Another one to think about is 'Therese Bugnet'. It's new here this year and about to flower but I don't know much about it yet... not sure how good it's repeat is.

Has anyone grown 'Vanguard'?

I also have some cuttings of another Australia bred hybrid rugosa called 'Kilmore Rose'. Don't know much about it yet except what it says on HMF about it. So far it's leaves are not as rugose as a normal rugosa but clearly wrinkled and the stems are intermediate between modern and rugosa in the thorniness stakes. I'll have about 7 spare plants of this so if anyone would like to try it let me know... it will probably sucker like crazy on its own roots. They've struck and are growing nicely... will be available this winter.

I'm trying 'Rugelda' but am a little diasppointed so far as it doesn't seem very rugosish... I think crossed back to a rugosa might be good but time will tell on that one.

Does anyone grow 'Martin Frobish', 'Fritz Nobis' or 'Agnes'?

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Re: Freycinet

Post by larryp on 8th November 2011, 19:48

Hi Simon

Have grown Agnes. Like Rugelda in my climate ugly as sin. Got blackspot and rust. Got foetida blood in it so in warm climates loses a lot of that rugosa disease resistance. In Tassie's climate might go ok as it was bred in Canada and some Northern American growers rave.
Grew Fritz Nobis and it was a case of plant and stand back. Threw long canes everywhere. Lovely flowers but you have to be extremely tolerant of its triffid like qualities for a once a year flowering. Tolerance which I didn't possess - so out he went. Of German origin so may be more tractable down your way
Vanguard I haven't grown but their was a specimen in Parramatta Park Heritage Garden and it was basically supine all year - rarely a flower let alone leaf. Laurie Newman (of Reliable Roses fame) whose advice I trust on rugosas calls it third rate and a blackspot magnet.
Feel like qualifying everything I say with reference to Sydney's climate. Been mid 30's for past coupla days (with more to come) and huge thunderstorms in the afternoons. Cool climate roses just can't hack those conditions - sometimes I long for a climate like Tasmania - and in my totally unqualified opinion many rugosas long for it also.

Larry
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Re: Freycinet

Post by RitaG on 8th November 2011, 21:11

I fell in love with Rugosa roses at Parramatta Park. That's where I first saw Vanguard and decided to buy a plant. At the time, going back some 10 yrs back, Vanguard was a healthy plant, the blooms amazing, that's what convinced me. After I planted mine the one in PP died - just collapsed, as mine did after 2 seasons.

I am sort of growning Agnes. I bought her for my mum and it is growing in a large tub at her house. This rose gets very neglected, alongside Delicata in an anjoining tub.

I bought these two for Mum because, 1) Agnes is my mum's name, 2) Delicata is my sisters married surname, and 3) I know how tough Rugosa is and they would need to be to survive total neglect for weeks at a time, as the only TLC they get is when I visit with Mum @ her house and I have the time to go out and give them some fish emulsion, weed the tubs and give them a good soaking.

Last week both had blooms on them and I was tickled pink, mum was too.

Rain is still coming down, but its sooo humid I can't stand it. I'm with Larry on this one - give me cooler Tassie weather any old time.

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Re: Freycinet

Post by larryp on 8th November 2011, 22:08

Aah - so that's why Vanguard looked supine, leafless and flowerless in Parra Park - ii was dead! That's why you can always trust my advice - I'm so observant Idea
If it gets any more humid tonight I'll be able to swim to Tassie in my own sweat.

Larry
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Re: Freycinet

Post by Admin on 8th November 2011, 22:57

I have the heater on Wink

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Re: Freycinet

Post by The Lazy Rosarian on 9th November 2011, 06:00

For what it is worth I have 2 Vangaurds, bought 1, got 1 free. They are quite healthy at present and are living in the garden of weeds, so they have stiff competition lol!
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Re: Freycinet

Post by larryp on 9th November 2011, 11:16

Vanguard eh.Well that’s roses for ya Dave. Capricious beasts with a malevolent streak.Maybe that's what accounts for my love/hate relationship with them.
A life with roses can be full of enchantment and seductive allure followed by dashed hopes and thwarted dreams. It’s not for us mere mortals to understand their whims and caprices just to deal with them the best we can. I’ve planted roses in my front yard which have been glorious then planted one out back which has shunned my every effort to entice it to match its mate out front. I’ve lost count of the number of roses which have disappointed me, been passed on to friends (Hi Rita and Meryl) and performed like champions in their new homes. Maybe it’s just me they take an instant dislike to.

Back to rugosas which do well in hot humid climates. Been 35C plus here in western Sydney for a few days, same predicted for today. As humid as a Bedouin’s armpit and huge storms in the afternoons. Here is Sarah van Fleet this morning. Hasn’t stopped flowering since early spring, buds everywhere,now over fence height and still rocketing skyward. Only drawback – has a lovely scent but isn’t that aromatic clovey aroma which I love in rugosas. Ah well can’t have everything.

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Re: Freycinet

Post by The Lazy Rosarian on 9th November 2011, 12:39

More Rugosa's to the world I say, lol!
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