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Old cemetery foundling. Can anyone ID please?

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Old cemetery foundling. Can anyone ID please?

Post by IanM on 22nd October 2011, 21:57

This rose (see link below) was found in an old cemetery and grown from a cutting. It was growing up through the hollows in an old pine tree, gradually suckering along to reach a height of a couple of metres.
A characteristic feature of this rose is the off-centre green eye. It forms a lanky clump of lax canes up to about 1 metre high with few thorns. The flowers tend to ball unless the weather is bright and sunny. Once flowering only but absolutely delicious strong old rose scent. Typical Gallica foliage.
The rose is obviously not an old rootstock, as it is far too frail and spindly. I believe it was probably planted as a rose in its own right, probably in the late 1800s-early 1900s (judging by the dates on the nearby headstones).
The bloom in the photos was the only well-formed flower to appear this year. Most of the flowers were only a third to a half normal size and not properly formed on opening. It evidently requires ideal weather conditions to flower well.
PLEASE NOTE: It was difficult to get the colour right on photographs. These photos all appear much, much darker than the rose actually is. The actual colour is a mid-pink, and the same shade throughout.

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IanM

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Re: Old cemetery foundling. Can anyone ID please?

Post by Admin on 22nd October 2011, 22:11

Ian, take a look at my 'Paloona Dam Pink' foundling: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

I suspect they might be the same rose.

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Re: Old cemetery foundling. Can anyone ID please?

Post by IanM on 22nd October 2011, 22:19

Hi Simon,

They are similar but not the same. The calyx lobes are different on yours and the pedicels are quite thorny with much denser hairs. My rose is virtually thornless except for an occasional few thorns on an odd branch or two, and a row of tiny thorns along the mid-rib on the undersurface of the leaves.

They are both probably varieties of Rosa Centifolia. Shouldn't be too hard for the heritage rose people to work them out.
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IanM

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Re: Old cemetery foundling. Can anyone ID please?

Post by IanM on 22nd October 2011, 23:00

Some "maybes" to look at are 'Anais Segales', 'La Plus Belle des Ponctuees' and 'Paul Ricault'.
Paul Ricault is quite a good match for mine as it often has that off-centred eye, however it is said to be armed with thorns / prickles.
Bloom form is not quite double enough (too few petals) to be Anais Segales.
'La Plus Belle des Ponctuees' seems to have a more distinct yellow eye.
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Re: Old cemetery foundling. Can anyone ID please?

Post by IanM on 24th October 2011, 00:02

Some more blooms are coming out today and these have contrasting white to light pink outer edges. I will try to get some photos and add to my Flickr photoset soon.
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Re: Old cemetery foundling. Can anyone ID please?

Post by IanM on 28th October 2011, 15:31

After doing some more research I reckon my foundling rose can only be 'Anais Segales'. The problem with a lot of these old Gallica/Centifolia roses is they can be SO variable. Even the flowers can come out differently on the one plant depending on the soil, weather and aspect. But the plant and flowers are so much like most of the photos I've looked at and descriptions I've read that I have decided it can only be 'Anais Segales'.

Simon, I'm going to correct myself too. It is possible that yours is this same rose as well, because even though my plant is generally thornless it does sometimes get small thorns on the flowering pedicels, just as in your photo.
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IanM

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Re: Old cemetery foundling. Can anyone ID please?

Post by Admin on 28th October 2011, 21:16

Possibly. the primary difference I can see, so far, is that mine is more of a hot candy-pink. With colour being such an unreliable factore it may well be environmental so who knows. When its big enough I'll send some up and you can grow them side-by-side.

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Re: Old cemetery foundling. Can anyone ID please?

Post by IanM on 28th October 2011, 22:46

Thanks Simon,
When I grew this rose in Toowoomba on red soil, the flowers came out purple. Must be the China influence that causes the high degree of variation in the flowers.
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I know that rose...

Post by bigjackmountain on 13th November 2011, 19:08

I am sure that is the same rose that I have in my garden that has been my mystery rose. Two friends also have the same rose which came from old gardens in our area. BUT..... I think I know who she is. I think it is De la Grifferaie 1845, a hybrid multiflora. She is photographed in 'Gardening with Old Roses An Australian Guide' by Alan Sinclair and Rosemary Thodey. That photo clearly identifies the colour, shape and leaf. Bred by Vibert in France, 'most likely from rosa multiflora Plataphylla and a gallica and widely used as rootstock in the nineteenth century and still often found as a garden relic'. I have checked photos in other rose books but they are not as comprehensive with their detail. I shall upload photos of my rose which appears to be identical to the Alan Sinclair photo of De la Grifferaie. [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]


Last edited by bigjackmountain on 13th November 2011, 22:47; edited 4 times in total (Reason for editing : you can never do enough edits especially when you are trying to upload a photo)
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Re: Old cemetery foundling. Can anyone ID please?

Post by Admin on 13th November 2011, 19:14

Hi BJM,

Welcome aboard Smile

Makes sure you check out [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]... it will make the mysterious possible. Don't forget to drop in to [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] to tell us a bit about yourself Thumbsup

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Re: Old cemetery foundling. Can anyone ID please?

Post by IanM on 13th November 2011, 23:02

Hi BJM and welcome to the forum.
You may be spot on with the ID, although the leaf on 'De la Grifferaie' shows more multiflora characters than mine seems to. I'm also a bit concerned about the way 'De la Grifferaie' often forms a big, mounding bush, where mine always seems to grow as a very sparse bunch of untidy, spindly stems that often seem inclined to fall over or (if against something) climb. But I agree it is a very good possibility and you may well be correct. I'll have to watch the plant for a few more years to know for sure. (The problem with these once-flowering roses is you have to wait a whole year to see them in bloom again.)
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more on that mystery girl

Post by bigjackmountain on 13th November 2011, 23:11

This year has been a revelation as it has been such a good season and the roses are doing what they love, going mad.......and so my rather sad mystery rose hs become a rampant magnificent thing. I will post another photo to show her habit.[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
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Re: Old cemetery foundling. Can anyone ID please?

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