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Can someone please ID this old rose?

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Can someone please ID this old rose?

Post by IanM on 3rd October 2011, 17:47

Well I finally got around to photographing my grandmother's rose this morning. See the link to 40 photos of the rose at the end of this message. I am hoping someone will recognize it and be able to provide an identification.

I decided there were too many photos for the forum, so I uploaded them to my Flickr account instead.

I tried to capture as many characters that I could think of. This rose repeats well throughout the spring and summer and even continues into the autumn, only slowing down by the winter when it then sets a good number of red, ovoid hips. The flowers are usually around 10cm diameter, but my mother can recall seeing it years ago with flowers up to 15cm or more across. It was obviously growing on better soil and its roots had access to more moisture and nutrients than at its present location. One problem with this rose is that the flowers tend to ball in very wet, humid weather. In fact when I lived on the Range it never flowered once successfully. Yet here at my more westerly home it is constantly in full bloom. The rose is a little bit susceptible to black spot, but survives it well.

Here is the link. There are two pages of photos. Just click on the thumbnails to enlarge images. [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

If the above link doesn't work, try this one: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
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Re: Can someone please ID this old rose?

Post by Admin on 3rd October 2011, 18:59

'Madame Isaac Pereire'... see this link for a bud match photo: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

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Re: Can someone please ID this old rose?

Post by Guest on 3rd October 2011, 19:21

looks alot like Comte de Chambord

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Re: Can someone please ID this old rose?

Post by Balinbear on 3rd October 2011, 21:24

It looks a bit pink for Isaac Pierrie. Could be its sport Madame Ernest Calvat

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Has similar buds etc
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Re: Can someone please ID this old rose?

Post by Admin on 3rd October 2011, 21:35

My 'MME Isaac Pereire' is that pink. Willing to bet this is it. Does it have a divine fragrance and tend to grow like a climber? Mine shows no tendency to want to climb down here.

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Re: Can someone please ID this old rose?

Post by Balinbear on 3rd October 2011, 21:45

simon
We have both (surprisingly for where we are nad probably more surpising that we were told they would not flower up our way). We have two Issacs. One is more a long steemed shrub than a climber. Never gets higher than about 1.5 metres. The other one I grew by layering one of Issac's stems is more a shrub. There was a magnificent photo of one growing as a shrub in an english garden magazine Lee came home with.

Our Issac's are quite red compared to Ernst Calvat. They are both flowering at present so If I get a chance in the morning I'll take some photos for a comparision.

Both have amazing perfume.
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Re: Can someone please ID this old rose?

Post by Admin on 3rd October 2011, 22:36

Mine is about to flower too - will try and get some photos when they appear too Thumbsup

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Re: Can someone please ID this old rose?

Post by IanM on 4th October 2011, 00:04

Wow thanks everyone for all the very prompt replies. I looked up 'Madame Isaac Pereire' and all looked well until I notice it is a climber. My rose is short and stocky, a bush with very straight, upright, sturdy stems up to about 1.2 metres. Also not correct because Isaac Pereire does not have those prominent glandular hairs on the pedicels and calyx lobes.

'Madame Ernest Calvat' not correct either. Colour is wrong and calyx lobes too short and not foliose. Leaves look wrong too. Excellent fragrance, but then so do most of these old roses.

'Comte de Chambord' is a maybe. At least the height is about right. But the bloom form looks more perfectly formed and possibly has more petals than mine. My rose is always a bit lopsided looking. Also the blooms do not fade out on the outer side of the bloom either.

First reply just received from the Australian rose heritage experts suggests it is similar to 'CWA rose' ROR.
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Re: Can someone please ID this old rose?

Post by Admin on 4th October 2011, 01:19

MIP has those glandular buds and mine doesn't climb. At 3 years old mine is still only 3ft tall with stems like you describe. As Gary mentioned there looks to be a few forms around. The thing, for me, that puts a question over MIP is the shape of the hips. Mine forms more rounded hips.

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Re: Can someone please ID this old rose?

Post by Balinbear on 4th October 2011, 08:10

Photos this morning

MIP
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MEC
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Re: Can someone please ID this old rose?

Post by AutumnDamask on 4th October 2011, 08:29

Photos from my 2 MIP this morning:
MIP 1
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MIP 2
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Re: Can someone please ID this old rose?

Post by Carole on 4th October 2011, 09:42

We have MIP but it is very slow growing, I think it might need a good feed.
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Re: Can someone please ID this old rose?

Post by IanM on 4th October 2011, 10:49

Thank you both for the photos. MIP is not the same rose sorry. Too many of the details are wrong. I also don't believe there are "different forms" of MIP. I'm betting there is only one form and the others are something else.

My mother tells me the rose can grow quite large under good conditions. She saw it up as high as a trellis once, where it was growing on deep scrub soil, well manured and watered. I'd guess this would mean it could grow around 1.8 metres under ideal conditions. It can get quite lanky when it reaches these proportions too, but it never makes any attempt to climb. She also said the flowers were much larger under these conditions, 15cm up to 20cm diameter. The flowers can be quartered at times, but never perfectly round - always a little bit lopsided.

I can see it will soon join a growing list of other foundlings of roses in this "La Reine - Anna de Diesbach" spectrum (as Margaret puts it) at Renmark. Smile
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Re: Can someone please ID this old rose?

Post by Guest on 4th October 2011, 11:04

Ian how your decribing its growth patterns, I still say it is Comte De chambord, the one I use in Deniliquin is 6ft high and lanky, leaves look identical as does the flowers. When looking at roses grown in Europe ,USA on HMF, you have to take in consideration the growing climates. Here in OZ we are a lot warmer, growths can be 30-50 % more in volume and height, plus flowers are bigger due to the huge sap flow comming from such growths. Does it have a heavy perfume?

Warren

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Re: Can someone please ID this old rose?

Post by IanM on 4th October 2011, 13:05

Thanks Warren,

I still haven't dismissed Comte de Chambord. That one is a defnite possibility.

The bloom I put in a vase yesterday has opened a bit more today, so I took some more photos. This time I tried to capture the colour in different light. sometimes it can appear light pink, othertimes purple, othertimes coppery silver, all depending on the light. Six new photos have just been just uploaded to Flickr. [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
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Re: Can someone please ID this old rose?

Post by Admin on 4th October 2011, 20:47

IanM wrote:I also don't believe there are "different forms" of MIP. I'm betting there is only one form and the others are something else.

That is what I meant.. something sold as MIP that isn't it... Mine comes from Treloars (and is virused).

MIP tonight, all dewy:

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There is a hip on the bush that I forgot to photograph.

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Re: Can someone please ID this old rose?

Post by IanM on 4th October 2011, 22:44

Thanks Simon, I can see it is definitely not the same rose from those photos. It's also starting to look as if it can't be Comte de Chambord either, because that rose generally pales out towards the edges of the bloom. Mine never does. Heritage group are still placing it in the Anna-La Reine spectrum.

I've just been looking at photos of 'Baronne Prevost'. Could be a match! Very Happy
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Re: Can someone please ID this old rose?

Post by Guest on 5th October 2011, 06:38

Hi Ian; I can definately tell you its not Baronne Prevost, the one I have access to for breeding is a lot tighter in the bloom than the one you have, plus young blooms of BP are quite a vibrant pink.

Warren

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Re: Can someone please ID this old rose?

Post by IanM on 5th October 2011, 10:47

Hi Warren,

Assuming of course that your Baronne Prevost is correct. Smile

I am looking at the early painting of this rose and all the parts match perfectly, particularly the bud, hips, and calyx lobes. The blooms on my rose are always a lot tighter outdoors. The one in the photos only opened more because I had brought it indoors in a vase.

Another thought I had for my rose is 'Archiduchesse Elisabeth d' Autriche', but this is generally a rose of quite small stature and fewer thorns. Also the leaf form is different (pointed not rounded at apex). So maybe not.

The problem with a lot of these old roses is we only have an old painting or two plus an "historical oral tradition" among gardeners who say "this is one name or the other". It is often difficult to know if the name we give to a rose today was that rose originally.

But having said that I still think this is the same rose as mine. [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Ian
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Re: Can someone please ID this old rose?

Post by IanM on 5th October 2011, 23:18

I have just received some more photos from the Heritage rose group of two foundlings. They are an exact match for my rose. They are definitely HP's (glandular, tubular pedicels) and are in the 'La Reine' / 'Anna de Diesbach' spectrum. It is possible that they may even be the real 'Anna de Diesbach'.
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Re: Can someone please ID this old rose?

Post by IanM on 22nd October 2011, 22:06

A prominent rose grower in France believes this rose is ARCHDUCHESSE ELISABETH D'AUTRICHE "with 90% certainty". Very Happy
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