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To bud or not to bud

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To bud or not to bud

Post by Guest on 6th September 2011, 12:43

Budding is mainly carried out in the commercial field as to see if performance is increased in growth or flowering, and as a means of propagating vast numbers of plants. The latter does not concern me that much as it is up to the grower to do that, but performance does.

Most of the cultivars which I grow if showing any weakness in growth is given a 2 yr period to prove it self or get shovelled, regardless if it has a truly spectacular bloom. Below are a few photographs taken of various cultivars of mine , which I found no change in growth or bloom performance whether budded or on own roots.



Arahan own roots.



Arahan budded on Indica Major



Cento Qaranta own roots



Cento Qaranta budded on Indica Major



Bamako own roots



Bamako budded on Indica Major

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Re: To bud or not to bud

Post by Ozeboy on 6th September 2011, 14:07

Nice healthy looking leaves, pleased to see some knowledgeable person do a comparison. I don't argue with people debateing which is the best system as both have benefits.
Some roses are better on their own roots while others are better grafted.
Mostly it is a matter of convenience if you have both skills.
How many times I have seen 50 cuttings taken from one rose in a large container of sand or potting mix trying to get a cutting strike prior to the "Black Death" taking over. We all know the benefits of having an ownroot rose die back to the ground in hard times then shoot away when the first rains arrive.

I find people less likely to give 5 or 6 cuttings off their pride and joy rose while happy to give a 6" piece with 4 or 5 buds on it. The success rate is higher with buds sent across the states. A grafter can put a new bud on a 3 year old rootstock to see the bud explode into growth being fed by those 3 year old roots.

Both skills give the gardener the flexability to cope with all situations so would suggest you learn the skills and plant some rootstocks to graft onto.


Ozeboy

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Location : Glenorie, Sydney NSW
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Re: To bud or not to bud

Post by Guest on 6th September 2011, 14:29

Howdy Bruce;

I think some roses have the ability to grow on their own roots and grow well, but as you say, when the black death takes over and you may lose say 50% of your cuttings. I use and swear by Indica Major , though a little thorny when working with, is an awesome rootstock. When I prepare it for callus , you do not have to wait very long for it to do so. The loss to the black death is minimal or not at all , because of its ability to callus so rapidly, it gives multiflora a real run for its money, as I use both rootstock types. I was give some of Buck's Iowa (9) Multiflora rootstock , really different foliage and growth is very good. When it gets going, I will send you some up when the time comes.


It is good to do a comparison because it lets you know what paths you can go down.

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Re: To bud or not to bud

Post by Ozeboy on 6th September 2011, 18:44

Warren I don't have problems with Multiflora cuttings which callus in around 3 weeks when temperatures are around 25 C. Winter cuttings take a lot longer to callus. I plant them in the ground 70 cuttings to a row. These are planted approx 200mm apart with 400mm between rows. The failure rate is from 1 to 2 in the row of 70 and 3 is a poor result. I find planting in the field less work as the moisture is more consistant, they look after themselves. Pots are too much work and the moisture is either too wet or dry and never just right.

I have tried Fortuniana with very disappointing results. Up to 100% going black for a nil result. This season I have tried them in sand and have what looks like a 10% success rate which is just not acceptable. Simon suggested trying to bud Fortuniana onto Multiflora, then plant deep so the Fortuniana will put out it's own roots. As at now I have 7 done this way, the tape is off, the buds are very much alive, clean and green but have not shot yet. The search for a 100% success rate for Fortuniana goes on.
Must mention these experiments keep me alive though sometimes question WHY!!!!, WHY!!!.

I would love to trial any of your rootstocks as as we have mentioned in the past compatability is so important. I have about 5 different Multiflora, pink, white, thorns and smooth, long and thin and several different leaf types.

Thanks for your Indica Major and Multiflora when growth permits offer.


Ozeboy

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Re: To bud or not to bud

Post by Guest on 6th September 2011, 19:29

Bruce I have heard so many mixed results on fortuniana rootstock, the main reason they use it in WA is because of the nematode problem. From what I have read on the net its roots don't go down very deep but fan out under the soil surface. I was doing some research on the net on rootstocks and the results were varied.

Multiflora in high saline areas was not good as it has a capacity to uptake salts effecting the plant

Forntuniana had good nematode resistance

Indica Major is used a lot in the rose industry in europe, tolerates nematodes and saline conditions.

Here in country NSW a lot of properties rely on bore water for their household, stock and gardens. The main disadvantage of doing so is the salt levels within this bore water, makes it a problem. The sad thing is though, a lot of these bores are increasingly becoming more and more saline.

Bruce I have access to a lot of R. Indica Major .

Warren

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Re: To bud or not to bud

Post by Ozeboy on 6th September 2011, 20:45

Warren I have also heard mixed results from Fortuniana, also roots extending out up to 25 feet. Really don't know if it is worth the trouble. Every time someone mentions good or bad results from using it I ask the question, "What advantages or disadvantages have you noticed ?".
Most times no real reply making it difficult to decide if it is any advantage using it here on the East Coast.

Will look forward to trialing your suggestions here in Sydney's humidity.

Ozeboy

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Re: To bud or not to bud

Post by neptune on 7th September 2011, 12:11

all my roses are on fortuniana root stock and have not yet found a root over a metre long......is this because we in the west have a different fort or is it the climatic area?
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Re: To bud or not to bud

Post by Ozeboy on 7th September 2011, 18:28

neptune, thanks for your post, the 25 feet long roots were described somewhere I read. Have been trying to get all the facts but seems there are differences from area to area and country to country.

As previously mentioned it is supposed to tolerate nematodes better in the southern states of USA. I am rapidly loseing interest in doing a hundred or so just in case it doesn't like this area. I did correspond with a nursery owner in WA and he mentions Multiflora is as good as anything in his area.

How old is the rose you have on Fortuniana that has a root just under a metre?

Thanks again for your information.

Ozeboy

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Location : Glenorie, Sydney NSW
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Re: To bud or not to bud

Post by neptune on 7th September 2011, 19:05

all of mine bar one( a double delight) are between , from pots, 2yrs to 2mths. A month ago I did a rose prune at a past distant mayor of Fremantle's place. Had to move a rose bush that was sixty plus years old and the longest root that we could find(trying to preserve the whole root system) was around the 3meter length. having said that as well...there were two thick roots headind south to China that were longer than 3 metres and I assume trying to get to the water table that was 8 metres down. They had to get the chop. So I assume that this leads to another question......does the length of a root system is determined by its need to find water.....plenty of water ...short roots....not so plenty...hunt for water.....
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Re: To bud or not to bud

Post by Guest on 7th September 2011, 19:34

Howdy Neptune;

I am Aware of that lovely soil you have in the sand dunes of WA. Are you in Perth?The closest thing I have seen that matches Perth Soils are those on the Gold Coast Qld, all reclaimed back in the 60's . My older brother used to live in Perth and now is in Geraldton. Anyway getting back to the subject. Those Perth soils, the only fertile section of it would be no more than 6"deep, once you go beyond that she is pure sand with nothing in it at all. Its sort of like the rainforests most roots are quite shallow because of subsoils being so poor, most of the nutrient is in the top few inches .I suppose if you were in a higher rainfall area the roots wood spread out a fair way, but those sandy WA soils , when not watered regularly become hydrophobic, repelling water making soaking almost impossible. If you use sprinklers it sounds like the root under 1 metre is around the drip line of the plant where it is the wettest.

Warren

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Re: To bud or not to bud

Post by neptune on 7th September 2011, 20:17

Hi Warren
I live on the coast south of Fremantle and the soil that I started out with looks like your typical white beach soil....hydrophobic and nothing in it. So I spend a lot of time building up the soil. I think there is a photo on here somewhere, where I have dug out the garden bed and you can see the soil. The soil under the lawn is black for 2ins where I replaced it then white beach sand. Also I water my gardens from a bore....
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Re: To bud or not to bud

Post by Guest on 10th September 2011, 10:24

This is a rose which i would not trial as it is one of the most vigorous roses I have bred. It grows to around 3ft High and around 4ft in width, continual bloom and mid season can be cut back quite hard and it starts all over again. It is fertile, its called Sinope


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