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Irregular ploidy rose seedlings

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Irregular ploidy rose seedlings

Post by Guest on 3rd September 2011, 13:18

Hello every one thought I would poke my head in again. Did some interesting crosses last spring and here are the results.



This is a Mimas X R. virginiana, foliage as you can see is grey green and its health is very good.








This is a Sympathie X R. virginiana, foliage is similar to the above with more red tinging in the new growth. Planted 3 of the similar cross in the grow out field the other day, foliage is similar with variations in leaf width, all very heathy.













These two crosses are Sympathie X R. forrestiana, the top one has quite long leaves for the size of the seedling, although they ok health wise, I think there may be some ploidy conflict happening as they look a bit weak.



With the Sympathie X R. forrestiana , the offspring will be triploids The Mimas X R. virginiana and the Sympathie X R. virginiana , occording to Hurst's septet formulae all will be Irregular tetraploid with a 3 + 1 configuration. This also applies when using R. carolina crossed with moderns as well. The beauty of this is , that high ploidy roses (R. sweginzowii 3 +3 ) can be used to pollinate them when they flower?. I suppose it would be good to pollinate Teas or any diploid with its configuration of 3 + 1 .


cheers warren

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Re: Irregular ploidy rose seedlings

Post by Guest on 22nd September 2011, 18:07

Here are a couple of pics of two Sympathie X R. virginia seedlings showing two forms of foliage colour.

Green form


Bronze form

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Re: Irregular ploidy rose seedlings

Post by Guest on 26th September 2011, 17:06

Here is another leaf form of a Sympathie X R. virginiana, it is quite coarse in texture compared to the other two.






Last year I did this cross of Sympathie X Multiflora ( Cottage Pink) in the hope of obtaining something with good health and a floribuda type rose. Looking at the stipules of the seedling compared with the stipules of Sympathie ,plus being thornless, I would say the cross occurred.

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Re: Irregular ploidy rose seedlings

Post by Guest on 27th September 2011, 19:22

Has anyone picked up , that the Sympathie X R. virginiana with the coarse leaf texture has only 3 leaves per leaf stem.

Warren

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Re: Irregular ploidy rose seedlings

Post by Guest on 28th September 2011, 16:01

This is Mimas X R. virginiana

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Re: Irregular ploidy rose seedlings

Post by Admin on 28th September 2011, 19:02

According to Hurst's septet formulae (see here: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] ) virginiana and carolina are classic 2+2 tetraploids. The only ones with uneven meiosis are those in the Caninae section and R. damascena 'Omar Khayyam'.


Last edited by Simon on 28th September 2011, 20:04; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Irregular ploidy rose seedlings

Post by Guest on 28th September 2011, 19:23

Most modern roses AACC , R. Virginiana CCDD and R. Carolina AADD

(Mod Rose) AC X CD (R. virg) ---> ACCD ACD + C
(Mod Rose) AC x AD ( R. carolina) ----> AACD ACD + A

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Re: Irregular ploidy rose seedlings

Post by Admin on 28th September 2011, 20:21

They are still tetraploid. AACC x CCDD Arrow ACCD (with one A septet, two C septets, and one D septet) which will make 2+2 ovules:eggs that can be either AC, AD, or CD. I don't understand what you mean by ACD+C to give your 3+1 value.

Am I missing something? I've been using these references as guides:

1. [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
2. [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

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Re: Irregular ploidy rose seedlings

Post by Guest on 29th September 2011, 13:54

Nah your not missing anything , it is something that I found by looking at patterns. Hurst classified most things into their septet characters of AA ,BB, CC, DD and EE. Over millions of years when the great continents were joined some probably interbred forming the species we know today containing numbers of these septet characters in their configuration.

I am going on the patterns formed by these configurations and applying them to species crosses I do, which in nature would never had occurred due to being on different continents.

When you look at R. acicularis Lindl. (4+4)
AACCDDEE ACDE +ACDE

Or R. agrestis (4+1)
AABCD ABCD + A

Or R. alba (4+2)
AACCDE ACDE + AC

Here is a natural irregular tetraploid R. mollis (3+1) CDDE, I assume it would CDE + D as one D septet has been expressed on the right the spare duplicate would be kicked off to the left, (sounds like a footy match).

The only one that is different is R. indica Gloire De Dijion (2+2) due to it doubling its chromosomes like R. kordesii
AAAA AA+AA

Where you see them write (n? +n?) you dont really know which septet character is being represented and on what side, but you would have to assume if it has been expressed on one side the similar septet character would be kicked off to the otherside to be expressed as a individual septet. These are only my thoughts on the matter Hmmmm


Last edited by OZROZ on 29th September 2011, 17:36; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Irregular ploidy rose seedlings

Post by rosemeadow on 29th September 2011, 17:21

Very nice seedlings Warren.

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Re: Irregular ploidy rose seedlings

Post by Guest on 29th September 2011, 17:28

Thanks Rosemeadow, will be interesting to see how long they will take flower and what the bloom will look like

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Re: Irregular ploidy rose seedlings

Post by Guest on 1st October 2011, 16:03

The little Sympathie X R. forrestiana seedling has finally sorted itself out and now growing quite strongly. Earlier on I was worried about the ploidy issue, but I can wipe my brow now.

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Re: Irregular ploidy rose seedlings

Post by Guest on 2nd October 2011, 08:46

This the othe Sympathie X R forrestiana seedling , looks a bit different.

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Re: Irregular ploidy rose seedlings

Post by Guest on 8th October 2011, 18:44

This is a Sympathie X R. Virginina seedling, talk about being armed to the teeth, it is thorned right up the leaf stalk.

Warren

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Re: Irregular ploidy rose seedlings

Post by The Lazy Rosarian on 8th October 2011, 20:17

Just to get anyone's attention that is logged in, come over to the chat room, we are there and friendly. it is at the bottom of the home page.
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