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Is Multiflora Intelligent?

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Is Multiflora Intelligent?

Post by Ozeboy on 30th November 2010, 19:58

I have just about every variety of Multiflora available, some are quite different in growth, bloom and leaf colour as well as leaf patterns. Nearly all produce some hips however one particular bush has produced hundreds of hips. Unusual to the point where I had to investigate and found it was supported by growing through a Crabapple Floribunda. All others which number around 100 of the same variety did not have nearly a quarter of that growth ( Hips )

What made the plant know to grow more hips because of the support? Interesting isn't it.

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Re: Is Multiflora Intelligent?

Post by Admin on 30th November 2010, 21:44

I can help you partly answer this one Bruce as this came up on RHA a little while back.

All my multiflora set prodigious amounts of seed yet the guys in the U.S. tell me that multiflora, in its wild form, is relatively self sterile. They say that enough genetic variation exists, however, that some plants are more self-fertile than others and that we often select for this trait because more seed means more seedlings which can be used as understocks. Seeing as seedling multiflora are the prefered understock in areas such as Europe and the U.K. this makes sense and seeing as we trade understocks just like we trade around other roses some of these more fertile multiflora have made their way to Australia too. I don't know how to answer why others of the same variety did not produce as much seed... maybe the crab apple attracted more pollinators... but as to fertility variations between different varieties it seems we are to 'blame' again Wink


Last edited by Simon on 30th November 2010, 23:29; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Is Multiflora Intelligent?

Post by Ozeboy on 30th November 2010, 22:22

Simon will keep this seed seperate and trial it further. This variety came from Rumsey's when operating in this district. It's light green and very Rugosa leafed, similar to the last one you sent but the leaves are not as pointed as yours.

Since I replace all Mother plants every few years will plant 1000 plus seeds and will discard all others when the seedlings are producing well.

I also have another variety of Multiflora that is similar though little less Rugosa looking in the leaf that gets mildew when all the others are clean.

Thanks for your above post read with interest.

Ozeboy

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Re: Is Multiflora Intelligent?

Post by Admin on 30th November 2010, 23:39

I have acquired two other forms of multiflora over the last few years and also have one that gets mildew. I believe this is a very commonly used one in Australia. Mine came from Ladybird Roses (as 'Amadis' cuttings that turned out to be multiflora rootstocks). The other is an enormously vigorous one... much more vigorous than any of the others I have. The flower on this one is a ricj pink with a white centre. All are thornless so far. The wrinkled leaf one I sent you + the seelding of it I sent you are much more restrained growers here, easily maintaned as shrubs. This single pink/white one throws 15ft canes as thick as your thumb and wants to climb. I'm testing it now as a rootstock for weeping standards and have budded tiny 'Sweet Chariot' buds onto a long thick vigorous cane. This one also sets enormous amounts of seed.

I don't know how much seed the Ladybird Roses multiflora sets as it's only recently flowered.

All my other multiflora a seedlings raised over the last few years which show very little outward variation.

It might be worthwhile crossing a mini with one of these multiflora to make a miniature multiflora that might be useful as a miniature understock too for miniature standards. That way a more realistic growth habit might be observed instead of these poor little minis being driven as hard as normal roses by large vigorous rootstocks.

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Re: Is Multiflora Intelligent?

Post by Ozeboy on 1st December 2010, 09:18

I have been sourcing Multiflora since around 1980 and have seen so much variation. The mini Multiflora seems like a good idea for recently I noticed some ownroot mini's in Bunnings. The whole lot was very miserable and should have been thrown out. The propagator should have kept them another year until the roots had built up.

There are still a few unanswered issues with the Multiflora growing throught the Crabapple.
What made this bush produce so many more flowers prior to pollination or need for support? Could there have been root interaction between the rootstock of the Crabapple and the Multiflora?
I don't think it's an unusual bush genetically as this lot are very uniform and in a group 30 metres long by one and a half metres wide.
This could be an important find that we may never be able to solve. Imagine some crushed Crabapple tea poured around roses to increase blooms by 400%. All sounds crazy, I'm sure it's not that simple but intriguing.

Ozeboy

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Re: Is Multiflora Intelligent?

Post by Admin on 1st December 2010, 20:16

Maybe it's going the other way, Bruce Wink I have often heard of plants putting a last ditch effort into flowering in an attempt to gets their genes out their before they die. Maybe the crabapple is killing it Voodoo

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Re: Is Multiflora Intelligent?

Post by Ozeboy on 2nd December 2010, 09:38

Could be Simon, will keep an eye open and see what developes.

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Re: Is Multiflora Intelligent?

Post by IanM on 2nd December 2010, 12:57

This is a bit of a side issue, but I visited a nursery yesterday that has a ROR for sale called variously "Stan's Rose", "Fritz", or "Single Pink China". It is being sold as a China rose, but is clearly not a China, as the leaf, stipule, and flower form are all typical multiflora.
The interesting thing is that it is a miniature, only growing 30-60cm high. So I'm just wondering Ozeboy, if you may know the possible identity of this rose? Also if it is of interest I may be able to purchase one for you. Only problem is they sell for $15 each, cutting grown. I did not buy one for myself as I am concentrating mainly on Chinas. To my eyes this rose is not a China.
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Re: Is Multiflora Intelligent?

Post by Ozeboy on 2nd December 2010, 22:08

Hi IanM, Thanks for thinking of me re the above rose. I have not have not been able identify it from your description or names. I would have been interested in a minature Multiflora. I have looked on Help Me Find and the vintage gardens catalogue and can't ID it. That being the case I will give it a miss though appreciate you contacting me.


Regards Bruce

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Re: Is Multiflora Intelligent?

Post by IanM on 2nd December 2010, 23:14

I forgot to mention that the flowers start off single but later become more semi-double. Just a guess, but I wonder if it might be Multiflora 'Nana'?
Ian
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Re: Is Multiflora Intelligent?

Post by Ozeboy on 3rd December 2010, 08:11

Ian, will give it a miss at this stage. It may not sell so if going back to the nursery check it out.
I have about 1/4 acre of Multiflora and don't want another one unless it's a definate minnie.

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Re: Is Multiflora Intelligent?

Post by IanM on 3rd December 2010, 10:11

It is a definite mini and flowers profusely. I saw a full grown plant and it was only 30-40cm high. I only said 60cm as this could be maximum size under ideal conditions with good feeding.
I'm guessing it must either be a sport of a common multiflora that came up in someone's garden, or is the true Multiflora "Nana". It's called Stan's Rose or Fritz's rose, I assume because it was found in someone's garden by that name. The nursery owner gets a lot of her roses from an old homestead out west, in a garden full of old heritage roses.
Anyway I might pick one up next time I visit the nursery as it could be something interesting.
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Re: Is Multiflora Intelligent?

Post by Meryl on 3rd December 2010, 12:05

Hi Gentlemen, the following may or may not be of interest to a couple of you. Just thought you might as well know about it. This is Molly's Rose....

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As far as I can tell, it is an everblooming, ultra-shade-tolerant, multiflora miniature. It even has a faint sweet perfume after rain.
The bush you see would be about 45 cms at most. It is around five years old and growing under the canopy of a Chinese Elm which in turn is under the canopy of tall eucalypts. The soil is terrible, bush sand over clay, slightly improved by about a decade of leaf fall.

I named this rose after my mother from whose garden the original cuttings came and as I understand it, she had it from her mother. As you can see, it is an unassuming little rose but very pretty. In my mother's garden, I think it eventually reached about 60 cms.

It strikes very readily from cuttings.

Meryl

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Re: Is Multiflora Intelligent?

Post by IanM on 3rd December 2010, 14:12

Hi Meryl,

Thank you for posting these photos. This might be the same rose as Stan's Rose, but the leaf looks diferent. Stan's Rose may have a bit more influence from a China in it afterall. The leaf is a bit shiny like a China, but has the broader leaflets and leafy, toothed stipules like a Multiflora.
I am now keen to purchase Stan's Rose and will send you some cuttings of it Meryl for comparison. Smile

Ian
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Re: Is Multiflora Intelligent?

Post by OzRose on 3rd December 2010, 14:13

Meryl , I love it.

cheers. Oz
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Re: Is Multiflora Intelligent?

Post by Ozeboy on 3rd December 2010, 14:58

Ian and Meryl, thanks for your input. I don't know this rose hence the reason for being hesitant.
It's not the money that prevents me from sourcing this one though I like to know what I am buying. I did buy two roses at different times from a Queensland nursery and each cost $36-95 each so $15-oo plus postage would not break the bank.

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Re: Is Multiflora Intelligent?

Post by IanM on 3rd December 2010, 16:29

That's okay Bruce, I was reluctant to buy it for same reasons. But it might be just interesting enough for me to grow, at least until its identity can be established. It is possibly the same rose as Meryl's, but like I say, the leaf looks quite different on "Stan's Rose".
Ian
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Re: Is Multiflora Intelligent?

Post by Meryl on 3rd December 2010, 17:43

Guys, I would be surprised if my rose is any "named" rose. I've been unsuccessfully looking out for years for anything that matches it. It is probably a chance seedling. Its leaves and stipules are identical to those of an understock multiflora I have growing, however it has vicious little tiny thorns in contrast to the understock which has almost no thorns.

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Re: Is Multiflora Intelligent?

Post by IanM on 3rd December 2010, 18:55

I'd say you are right Meryl. Stan's Rose probably came about the same way. I looked up Multiflora var. nana and neither of our roses are it.
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Re: Is Multiflora Intelligent?

Post by The Lazy Rosarian on 4th December 2010, 07:34

Meryl, this could be the sort of understock that Simon is looking for, for minitatures so they are not dwarfted by normal understocks
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Re: Is Multiflora Intelligent?

Post by Meryl on 4th December 2010, 09:14

Well, that was the main reason I posted, David. Simon is welcome to cuttings if he should want some.

OzRose, thanks. I'm very attached to this little rose.

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Re: Is Multiflora Intelligent?

Post by Admin on 4th December 2010, 10:23

David and Meryl, it's such a beautiful little rose it would be an excellent garden plant in its own right. I would love some pieces down the track a bit. I do love the name too... 'Molly's Rose'... something about the name Molly that I just love.

My personal opinion is that it is very multiflora-like and that a lot of these smaller multiflora type plants come from people who have at some stage germinated Angel Wings-type seeds or random germnations from plants like them. They report them to be chinensis minima seeds but they clearly are not and are very much like multiflora 'nana', which is a dwarfed multiflora plant. They are also very tough little plants though I had all but two of mine killed by a late frost so they have cold hardiness issues even here in Australia. I only have one left now.

I actually have a small seedling whose first flower, open yesterday, look very much like this. It's from a wichurana hybrid called 'Temple Bells'.

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I love to see teh first flowers looking like this only weeks after germination on clean plants... so much hope for improvement in flower structure in the future and a good sign of remontancy... I was thinking it also had many multiflora features just yesterday too... after seeing 'Molly's Rose' I think it is even more likely multiflora genes are lurking in the background.

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Re: Is Multiflora Intelligent?

Post by IanM on 4th December 2010, 11:07

Simon, The rose called Stan's Rose is very old. It is also extremely frost hardy, down to Minus 8 C at least. Ian
PS I like your seedling. It has that Old World charm and the flower looks a bit like Parson's Pink.
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Re: Is Multiflora Intelligent?

Post by Meryl on 4th December 2010, 14:26

That's a beautiful little flower, Simon. Love the colour.

Molly's rose lives in the Katoomba garden and in the Sydney one. It doesn't seem at all fazed by the cold in Katoomba, though admittedly it has a fair bit of cover overhead (not from the Chinese Elm though, which is deciduous, of course). It would be interesting to learn how it would cope in Tasmania.

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Re: Is Multiflora Intelligent?

Post by IanM on 6th December 2010, 22:35

I am now working on a theory that the small Multiflora called "Stan's Rose" may have been a Frank Riethmuller rose, as he was a local rose breeder who worked for a time on breeding mini multifloras.
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Re: Is Multiflora Intelligent?

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